which engine has more potential for more power?

kidsharingan
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which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby kidsharingan » Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:39 am

hi guys, if I were to choose between 4age 20v blacktop and the 4age 16v smallport high horse, which of the 2 engine is much better or have more potential for more power with upgrades like cams, intake and exhaust?

is it possible for smallport 4age to gain as much power same as the blacktop without compromising drivability and remaining street legal?

thanks again club4ag.

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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby totta crolla » Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:45 am

[quote="kidsharingan"
is it possible for smallport 4age to gain as much power same as the blacktop without compromising drivability and remaining street legal?
thanks again club4ag.[/quote]

Probably not.
Toyota might have already thought of this.....

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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby kidsharingan » Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:27 am

ok, if both engines would be upgraded (not with turbo), which among the two will have more power than the other with maximum potential?? im planning on engine swap, the 20v blacktop in my place cost about 1700 usd, complete.. the small port is around 1200 usd complete... if I go small port and use that extra 500 usd for upgrades would the small port gain same power or close to that of a blacktop?

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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby totta crolla » Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:08 am

Potential for a huge debate with those claiming one is better than the other.
My car with smallport and Catcams performs about the same as a similar car with a blacktop 20v the blacktop has better bottom end power (vvt) and produces fewer emissions.

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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby kidsharingan » Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:30 am

So who is more upgradeable ? Pardon me for asking too much but if im going to have an engine swap id like to know first which is the better one for future upgrades so at the end i will not regret that it should have been the smallport or the blacktop that i chose over the other ... so im asking the experts here to help me out to decide.. thanks guys

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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:31 am

It really depends on your ultimate goals and budget. Yes you can get the same power out of a smallport as a blacktop for a pretty reasonable amount of money but not for $500.
The biggest thing you would have to address is cams and compression. That's about $1000 to $1500 just for cams and pistons but then you have to get the block machined for the new pistons. At that point you might as well do a full rebuild and at that point you will have spent much more than a BT swap but you are also comparing a fully rebuilt performance engine to a used motor of questionable condition so there is added value for the 16v that needs to be accounted for.
Street legal would only be an issue if you have to pass emissions. In which case we would need to know how strict your standards are.

All 4AGE generation motors have made very respectable power numbers in both NA and boosted form so you have to look at the other pros and cons. The 20v VVT is a big pro but the VVT gear like some other 20v parts is very hard to find used and very expensive new. 16v parts are very cheap generally although the SP head is a bit rare and more expensive.

For all out power like if you were trying to build a 240 HP formula atlantic motor you might be better off with a 16v because a lot more development time has been put into getting those motors to that level.
On the other hand in unported and or mildly modified form the 20v will tend to outflow and outperform the 16v if each had similar mods.

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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:50 am

kidsharingan wrote:
is it possible for smallport 4age to gain as much power same as the blacktop without compromising drivability and remaining street legal?

thanks again club4ag.


yep.... below is a fully street-able smallport 16V 4AGE that plants equal power to a blacktop

Image

Image


As to which engine has more potential(N/A)... the smallport with $15k-$20k invested in one engine will make about 260-270 hp @ the crank. the highest power Blacktop I know of is this one viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1026 it made about 250, but it needed a lot more stroke to get to 250. The Atlantic smallport 16V with the extra stroke makes about 270-290 hp.


As has been asked of you (OP), what are YOUR goals? What is it you want to do? Is this a street car? A track car? Do you want a dyno queen? What do you want when you are done? What emissions standards? If you are in the USA... a few states will fail the blacktop just because it was never offered in the USA. My engine above... would fail in California... but passes fine in Oregon. So we need to know more from you before we can help you
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby kidsharingan » Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:24 pm

thanks for the reply guys,, im from Philippines by the way ... im not looking for a big power gain just enough for a daily driver with an added power than stock... if I can reach a 170-180 hp then that would be enough for me... black top is 165 hp on the crank right? how much is its wheel horse power?

and some guys on another thread is recommending that I should go 3SGE instead of 4AGE route ... what can you say about this?,

does anyone here know the actual weight of 4AGE and 3SGE including tranny? cause if these two engines are at similar weight then I might consider the 3SGE over the 4AGE ... thanks again... :)

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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:17 pm

Are you looking for 170-180 CHP you are looking at cams, compression, and tune. If you are looking for WHP that's kind of a whole level up and starts getting real expensive.
Can I ask why you aren't considering turbo

I don't know the weight of the beams but I believe it's significantly heavier. As will any trans that's attached to it. I am sure you can find some close weights with a quick google search.

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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby kidsharingan » Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:08 pm

Id like to stay NA if i go turbo id be going 4agze instead but i like to keep it NA ... yeah just 170 to 180 CHP only for 4age small port or if im going blacktop maybe around 200 CHP ... i think that figures would be enough for me for daily driving...

what upgrades do i need to make it at around 180 to 200 crank horsepower?

Im trying to find out now how much is the weight of 3sge against 4age


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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby kidsharingan » Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:13 am

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=562978


now thats a lot of thing do do hehe

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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:19 am

kidsharingan wrote:
yoshimitsuspeed wrote:http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=562978


now thats a lot of thing do do hehe


Getting the kind of power you want out of an NA 4A is not cheap or easy.
Going 7A would help but it adds a little cost and complexity of it's own.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/content/get ... brid-build

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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby InitialB » Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:45 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote: As to which engine has more potential(N/A)... the smallport with $15k-$20k invested in one engine will make about 260-270 hp @ the crank. the highest power Blacktop I know of is this one viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1026 it made about 250, but it needed a lot more stroke to get to 250. The Atlantic smallport 16V with the extra stroke makes about 270-290 hp.


I feel like he could have squeezed a little more power out of that 20v by getting some more aggressive cams.. like TRD spec 304/10.8mm and 312/10.8mm

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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby kidsharingan » Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:05 pm

So without reboring the cylinders and without porting heads how much power would it gain if we only change the cams, better exhaust and better intake like open velo stack for blacktop? Will that simple setup will i see plus 10 - 20 crank horse power gain?

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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby totta crolla » Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:04 am

kidsharingan wrote:So without reboring the cylinders and without porting heads how much power would it gain if we only change the cams, better exhaust and better intake like open velo stack for blacktop? Will that simple setup will i see plus 10 - 20 crank horse power gain?


Yes if it is put together and timed properly but your limitation will be your ecu and eventually its rev. limit
264 or 272 degree cams will get you the extra and a smallport inlet will flow enough air.
You may lose some bottom end power but a 272 degree cam is still considered a 'mild' cam
TBH Toyota did all this for you when they built the 20v and when my engine needs replacing I will be fitting a 20v

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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:49 am

Here is a smallport dyno comparison of stock cams, poncams and then poncams with increased compression.

Image

As you can see the poncams do give a notable gain in the top end. They do have a small loss up to about 4500. The loss is very small because it's a mild cam. A bigger cam will tend to loose you more down low.
20 HP gain is a reasonable expectation from this cam but as you can see that gain is only right at redline and it only starts to grow from about 6k RPM. Below that it has less power on average than it did stock.
Compression raises the power across the board so this brings your power under 4500 back up to around stock power levels. From here it grows much faster and much higher.

Peak power is one concern but from a performance perspective the motor with just poncams would be a bit faster than stock cams but the motor with compression and cams would be considerably faster than both because it makes considerably more power over a much broader range.

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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby kidsharingan » Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:25 am

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:Here is a smallport dyno comparison of stock cams, poncams and then poncams with increased compression.

Image

As you can see the poncams do give a notable gain in the top end. They do have a small loss up to about 4500. The loss is very small because it's a mild cam. A bigger cam will tend to loose you more down low.
20 HP gain is a reasonable expectation from this cam but as you can see that gain is only right at redline and it only starts to grow from about 6k RPM. Below that it has less power on average than it did stock.
Compression raises the power across the board so this brings your power under 4500 back up to around stock power levels. From here it grows much faster and much higher.

Peak power is one concern but from a performance perspective the motor with just poncams would be a bit faster than stock cams but the motor with compression and cams would be considerably faster than both because it makes considerably more power over a much broader range.



wow, its nice to see that graph there, so what is a poncam? and where can to buy it? and much the cost of these cams? in that figure at the graph what size of cams( duration and lift) did they use?
and how did they increase the compression? thank its really educational here ...

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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:17 am

Here are the cams. The poncams are only available in 264 duration. If you are staying with the stock ECU they are about the best bang for the buck you will find. If you want to go aftermarket engine management and for a little bigger goals there are other good cam options.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/products/to ... 64-81mm-ex

To get the compression increase they show on that graph they would have had to have replaced the pistons. One thing to note it that the low compression dyno is with the smallport 10.3:1 pistons so the gains you would see going from the largeport pistons would be even greater.

I designed the pistons in this kit specifically for use with the poncams and the setup has been well proven at this point.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/products/16 ... nd-pistons

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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby burdickjp » Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:06 pm

I'd consider the poncams as good cams even with compression and engine management.
Pursuing the ideal

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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby kidsharingan » Sun Dec 14, 2014 1:57 am

by the way may I know if that's wheel horsepower or crank horse power on that graph?

so with stock ECU, what size of camshaft is the maximum we can put?

and what compression ratio of piston we need to make that power or more? is it ok to use the piston of the 20v blacktop? I understand its around 11:1 ...

do we need to have an after market ECU if we change the piston with high compression piston?

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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:30 am

kidsharingan wrote:by the way may I know if that's wheel horsepower or crank horse power on that graph?

so with stock ECU, what size of camshaft is the maximum we can put?

and what compression ratio of piston we need to make that power or more? is it ok to use the piston of the 20v blacktop? I understand its around 11:1 ...

do we need to have an after market ECU if we change the piston with high compression piston?


All the graphs I have posted are wheel hp.


The rest of your questions are really impossible to answer.

The biggest cam you can run on the stock ECU? I don't really know and as soon as I decide it's X cam because that's all I could get out of it someone else could come along and prove me wrong.
It also totally depends on not only lift and duration but cam timing, ramp and other things.
As far as practical application goes something in the range of 264 duration and 8.2 lift will put your peak power pretty close to stock red line.
You may be able to run something more into the 270s and 9mm lift that would run okay on the stock ECU but peak power would likely be above stock redline so you would be leaving power on the table beyond the limits of the stock ECU. That doesn't necessarily mean you will make less power lower in the RPM but it's possible. It does mean your ECU is now the biggest thing holding you back.

On a performance build the shape of the piston and how it interacts with the combustion chamber is vital. I can't tell you if a 20v piston would work or clear but I can tell you it would be very far from ideal. If you want power you want a piston designed specifically around your combustion chamber.
Compression ratio is another thing that just can't get a single fixed answer. How much compression you run (and what's best) depends on cams, cam timing, fuel type, all VE mods like intake and exhaust etc.
We can give you ballparks of what we believe is save and or what we believe is pushing things and then someone could come along and blow everyone's perspective out of the water.
An example I saw just tonight. I knew someone who ran 13 PSI boost on a stock silvertop at 10.5:1. He was one of the most aggressive tunes I had seen on that motor. Many consider NA 11:1 and 264 cams to be pretty aggressive. I stumbled across someone on the facebook groups tonight who says he ran 16 PSI boost on a stock silvertop with the stock pistons.
The vast majority of the 4AGE owners out there will tell you that if you boost a stock largeport with 9.4:1 compression you will blow it up.
As you can see in this example there is a huge disconnect between what the vast majority believe is possible vs what the relatively few have done. The same goes for NA builds.
With x cam you might think you hit the limits at 11:1 compression.
Then someone else could come along and try to do roughly the same thing with 14:1 compression and somehow make it work.
There are too many variables to give one solid answer.
I have been stydying these theories for over a decade and this is still the best answer I can give you.
The best thing you can do is spend as much time researching as you can justify, then ask as many of the smartest questions you can come up with and then in the end ask yourself just how far you want to push the envelope with the knowledge you have.

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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby kidsharingan » Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:54 am

wow, so that is wheel horsepower already on that graph ... it means that its almost the same power with the stock 4age blacktop? ....

what will happen if you only change the intake cam and the exhaust cam will remain stock?

does the stock smallport 4age comes with a good exhaust manifold or there are better after market exhaust manifold out there?

I think I will go for smallport now after reading all of these info's here...

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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:28 am

kidsharingan wrote:wow, so that is wheel horsepower already on that graph ... it means that its almost the same power with the stock 4age blacktop? ....

what will happen if you only change the intake cam and the exhaust cam will remain stock?

does the stock smallport 4age comes with a good exhaust manifold or there are better after market exhaust manifold out there?

I think I will go for smallport now after reading all of these info's here...


my smallport IS @ stock blacktop levels.

By keeping the stock exhaust cam you are increasing your engines pumping losses (power loss do too restrictions in the intake, or exhaust flow)

The smallport engine was only ever designed for FWD applications... the exhaust manifold may... or may not work in a rwd application. While the manifold is uncertain, there are high quality exhaust headers available.... at a cost $$$
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby kidsharingan » Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:16 pm

Thanks again.. how about adjustable cam gears? Will it help in making more power? And how about changing the stock cam gears with bigger ones?

As much as possible if im going to want to have more power i dont like to touch the engine like reboring the cylinders or porting the heads ... its nice to know that there are things we can do to make more power without distroying the engine by porting or rebore jobs.. thanks again

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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:34 am

kidsharingan wrote:As much as possible if im going to want to have more power i dont like to touch the engine like reboring the cylinders or porting the heads ... its nice to know that there are things we can do to make more power without distroying the engine by porting or rebore jobs.. thanks again


really???? :cry:


:roll:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby totta crolla » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:18 am

kidsharingan wrote: And how about changing the stock cam gears with bigger ones?


You'd be the first to try it I reckon, but yeah it might be the one thing that Toyota didn't try.
Either fit a 20v or get someone to build you a tuned 16v
Last edited by totta crolla on Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby kidsharingan » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:49 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:
kidsharingan wrote:As much as possible if im going to want to have more power i dont like to touch the engine like reboring the cylinders or porting the heads ... its nice to know that there are things we can do to make more power without distroying the engine by porting or rebore jobs.. thanks again


really???? :cry:


:roll:


yes, atleast that's what I thought, making the cylinder bore thinner by reboring it will affect the engines life span, so I think by doing so it will end up destroying the engine.. I have heard of some guys here in our place that they blow up their engine by doing do, I just don't know if they did it wrong... correct me if im wrong sir

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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:54 pm

kidsharingan wrote:
yes, atleast that's what I thought, making the cylinder bore thinner by reboring it will affect the engines life span, so I think by doing so it will end up destroying the engine.. I have heard of some guys here in our place that they blow up their engine by doing do, I just don't know if they did it wrong... correct me if im wrong sir


You can safely bore the 4AGE up to 1.5mm over with no risk.
Many have gone 2mm over and it's considered to be pretty safe.
If you go 81.5mm or 82mm just to give the cylinders a fresh bore it will be just as good and just as reliable as stock as long as whoever bored the motor did it as well as stock.
Oftentimes people pay for crappy rebuilds then don't understand that is where the blame should be placed when it fails.

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Re: which engine has more potential for more power?

Postby kidsharingan » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:43 pm

Thanks alot for your advices gurus ... i really appreciate it you having time replying to my noob questions.. now i know what i will do after i have my engine swap this comming year. Ill be posting my swap here after its done to thank you for everything.. more horse power :)