Need engine build advice. New to the 4age power plant.

[Ae86-George]

Alright, So i am picking up an ae86 soon.
I am throwing the 4a-c right out the window.
I am looking at either a 4a-GZE or a "7a-GZE".
I want to make at least 250whp reliably (with room to expand later).
And I want a high revving motor because I will be doing road courses with it.

I don't mid you just linking me to a build but I couldn't find any with the info I needed.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

You wouldn't have found anything because you are not going to find any GZE platform with the stock supercharger making that kind of power.

I would not worry about looking for a GZE. The ECUs are quite horrible, the Superchargers are antiquated boat anchors. The only good thing you get with a GZE is forged pistons. Then again by today's standards the compression is depressingly low unless you are going for crazy power figures.
If you find a killer deal on a GZE then it may be your best starting point but I would not go out of your way to get one over a healthy NA 7 rib 4AGE.
If I were doing a build like this I would go with good forged aftermarket pistons. At this point you have lost any benefit of the GZE platform.
The stock supercharger can make a little over 180 WHP if it's pushed way beyond it's recommended limits and way too much money is put into other mods to try to get it there. If someone wants more than about 160 WHP starting with a GZE is an expensive step sideways.
Going straight to turbo will put you in a much better position to hit your goals and also the best starting point for the most economical upgrade path in the future. If you start out with a full GZE swap first then hit it's limits and go to turbo you will spend a lot more time and money in the long run.

7AGE is a great option and pairs very well with a turbo build.

I am all about the high compression low/moderate boost builds and your goals are perfect for one.

I would probably run something like these pistons.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/products/arias-10461-piston
Pair them with this cam
http://www.matrixgarage.com/products/ke ... agte-4agze

And pick some engine management. There are a ton of options out there. Megasquirt is very affordable and can do everything most people need.
The AEM EMS4 is also quite capable and affordable.
http://matrixgarage.com/store/ems-4

With a well thought out turbo build 250 WHP will be barely breaking a sweat.

Some links you may find helpful.

http://matrixgarage.com/content/yoshimi ... oing-4a-ge

http://www.matrixgarage.com/content/get ... brid-build

http://www.matrixgarage.com/content/links-and-writeups

[Ae86-George]

You wouldn't have found anything because you are not going to find any GZE platform with the stock supercharger making that kind of power.

I would not worry about looking for a GZE. The ECUs are quite horrible, the Superchargers are antiquated boat anchors. The only good thing you get with a GZE is forged pistons. Then again by today's standards the compression is depressingly low unless you are going for crazy power figures.
If you find a killer deal on a GZE then it may be your best starting point but I would not go out of your way to get one over a healthy NA 7 rib 4AGE.
If I were doing a build like this I would go with good forged aftermarket pistons. At this point you have lost any benefit of the GZE platform.
The stock supercharger can make a little over 180 WHP if it's pushed way beyond it's recommended limits and way too much money is put into other mods to try to get it there. If someone wants more than about 160 WHP starting with a GZE is an expensive step sideways.
Going straight to turbo will put you in a much better position to hit your goals and also the best starting point for the most economical upgrade path in the future. If you start out with a full GZE swap first then hit it's limits and go to turbo you will spend a lot more time and money in the long run.

7AGE is a great option and pairs very well with a turbo build.

I am all about the high compression low/moderate boost builds and your goals are perfect for one.

I would probably run something like these pistons.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/products/arias-10461-piston
Pair them with this cam
http://www.matrixgarage.com/products/ke ... agte-4agze

And pick some engine management. There are a ton of options out there. Megasquirt is very affordable and can do everything most people need.
The AEM EMS4 is also quite capable and affordable.
http://matrixgarage.com/store/ems-4

With a well thought out turbo build 250 WHP will be barely breaking a sweat.

Some links you may find helpful.

http://matrixgarage.com/content/yoshimi ... oing-4a-ge

http://www.matrixgarage.com/content/get ... brid-build

http://www.matrixgarage.com/content/links-and-writeups

You have no idea how much I appreciate you taking the time to type that out.

[Ae86-George]

Would you recommend to start with a 20v or a 16v?

[yoshimitsuspeed]

On that I would say pick your poison.
Realistically the 16v will be a little cheaper to get set up.
The main thing is that the 20v plenum can't take more than a few PSI of boost so you will need to get a turbo plenum. I can make these, as can a couple others but they aren't cheap.
There are some cheaper versions on ebay but they are cheap versions.
On the other hand the 20v cams are more aggressive so they will get you further than the 16v before you need to upgrade.

All 4AGE motors take boost very well though once they have good pistons in them.

I prefer the 20v myself but you have to address all the pros and cons. One big one is that some parts can be very hard to find and expensive. Things like VVT gears, silvertop AFMs, and some other things specific to the 20v.

This is my turbo blacktop.
I am still on the stock pistons though so at 7 PSI I am getting near the limits of what it can handle without tearing into the motor. I would guess that's close to 200 WHP. Even that is a pretty fun ride though. Not the fastest car I have driven but to me the most enjoyable.
http://matrixgarage.com/content/project-japanarat

[Ae86-George]

On that I would say pick your poison.
Realistically the 16v will be a little cheaper to get set up.
The main thing is that the 20v plenum can't take more than a few PSI of boost so you will need to get a turbo plenum. I can make these, as can a couple others but they aren't cheap.
There are some cheaper versions on ebay but they are cheap versions.
On the other hand the 20v cams are more aggressive so they will get you further than the 16v before you need to upgrade.

All 4AGE motors take boost very well though once they have good pistons in them.

I prefer the 20v myself but you have to address all the pros and cons. One big one is that some parts can be very hard to find and expensive. Things like VVT gears, silvertop AFMs, and some other things specific to the 20v.

This is my turbo blacktop.
I am still on the stock pistons though so at 7 PSI I am getting near the limits of what it can handle without tearing into the motor. I would guess that's close to 200 WHP. Even that is a pretty fun ride though. Not the fastest car I have driven but to me the most enjoyable.
http://matrixgarage.com/content/project-japanarat

Nice build.
I may be leaning closer to the 16v then. I always prefer more flow but I am building on a bit of a budget. And I probably will never go over 300whp (I'm probably going to look back in 5 years and be like "haha you have no idea").
So you think that a high comp low boost setup would be good for semi daily driver? I am trying to keep The AC since I live In Texas. Basically this would be the fun car to substitute my daily.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

So you think that a high comp low boost setup would be good for semi daily driver? I am trying to keep The AC since I live In Texas. Basically this would be the fun car to substitute my daily.

I'd say it's hard to beat for that application.
Quick spool, responsive power band, good off boost power, good gas mileage.

[burdickjp]

The T50s just don't do well with that kind of power through them, especially with boost and sticky tires.
There are a few transmission options out there:
-rebuilt the T50 with a different gearset, such as TRD or quaife
-Get a bellhousing to adapt a W series transmission
-Get a J160 from Oldeskewltoy

There are probably more, but I'm unaware of them.

[Ae86-George]

So you think that a high comp low boost setup would be good for semi daily driver? I am trying to keep The AC since I live In Texas. Basically this would be the fun car to substitute my daily.

I'd say it's hard to beat for that application.
Quick spool, responsive power band, good off boost power, good gas mileage.

Cool. I appreciate all your help.

[oldeskewltoy]

What is your budget?


Also,,, besides the T50 weakness, you'll have to also build the rear axle to withstand that kind of power too... options are....
a) a modified Supra (MA4) axle, make sure you get the correct one
b) a Modified Ford 8.8 - not sure but believe you begin with a Explorer rear end, and cut and weld the housing so both sides are equal length, then add spring and trailing arm mounts
c) Weir Performance diff and axle kit
d) cut and weld in an S13 rear

[Ae86-George]

What is your budget?


Also,,, besides the T50 weakness, you'll have to also build the rear axle to withstand that kind of power too... options are....
a) a modified Supra (MA4) axle, make sure you get the correct one
b) a Modified Ford 8.8 - not sure but believe you begin with a Explorer rear end, and cut and weld the housing so both sides are equal length, then add spring and trailing arm mounts
c) Weir Performance diff and axle kit
d) cut and weld in an S13 rear

Pizza delivery budget. But I will be spreading the project over how ever long it takes me to get the money to do it right.
Might go for the weir.
How about a W58 trans?

[Ae86-George]

What is your budget?


Also,,, besides the T50 weakness, you'll have to also build the rear axle to withstand that kind of power too... options are....
a) a modified Supra (MA4) axle, make sure you get the correct one
b) a Modified Ford 8.8 - not sure but believe you begin with a Explorer rear end, and cut and weld the housing so both sides are equal length, then add spring and trailing arm mounts
c) Weir Performance diff and axle kit
d) cut and weld in an S13 rear

Also your thing says you do a drop in 6 speed? How much does that run?

[oldeskewltoy]

What is your budget?


Also,,, besides the T50 weakness, you'll have to also build the rear axle to withstand that kind of power too... options are....
a) a modified Supra (MA4) axle, make sure you get the correct one
b) a Modified Ford 8.8 - not sure but believe you begin with a Explorer rear end, and cut and weld the housing so both sides are equal length, then add spring and trailing arm mounts
c) Weir Performance diff and axle kit
d) cut and weld in an S13 rear

Also your thing says you do a drop in 6 speed? How much does that run?

There is also the W58 transmission... although you need to get one of the aftermarket bell housings and do some custom work to get it to fit... some of these bell housings are better than others, so be careful...

I'm the USA rep for LEEN. LEEN has developed a conversion for the Altezza 6 speed, aka J160 - http://www.gearboxconversion.com/


LEEN sells the adapter in 3 forms, minimal kit, about $2300, full kit, about $2700, and bolt in ready including the transmission for $3300 - seen below





and here is one mounted to a 230+ hp Hasselgren 4AGE....

[Ae86-George]

Alright so how about this.
16V 7age.
10.45:1 comp pistons.
Turbo.
And that JC160 tranny.

[burdickjp]

Alright so how about this.
16V 7age.
10.45:1 comp pistons.
Turbo.
And that JC160 tranny.

That's going to be expensive.
More importantly, that doesn't say anything about how you're going to get from here to there.
I'm a big advocate of working in iteration.
Find a way to work in small steps from what you have to what you want. Make those steps flexible.
Work in directions which present more options than where you are now. Where you do end up will likely not be exactly where you'd wanted to end up when you started. If you plan it right, you won't have dumped a bunch of money in the process. If you do it wrong, you'll end up spending thousands of dollars more than what you would've otherwise. I mean a LOT of money.
So set an achievable goal, and include small steps to get there. When you have the means, take the next step. Don't take big bites!
Enjoy it along the way!

[Ae86-George]

Alright so how about this.
16V 7age.
10.45:1 comp pistons.
Turbo.
And that JC160 tranny.

That's going to be expensive.
More importantly, that doesn't say anything about how you're going to get from here to there.
I'm a big advocate of working in iteration.
Find a way to work in small steps from what you have to what you want. Make those steps flexible.
Work in directions which present more options than where you are now. Where you do end up will likely not be exactly where you'd wanted to end up when you started. If you plan it right, you won't have dumped a bunch of money in the process. If you do it wrong, you'll end up spending thousands of dollars more than what you would've otherwise. I mean a LOT of money.
So set an achievable goal, and include small steps to get there. When you have the means, take the next step. Don't take big bites!
Enjoy it along the way!

Yeah that's the way my brother built his mr2. First a gen 3 swap. And then a full out engine build.
I will most likely build a nice strong 4a-ge. And play until I can build a 7age.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

I'm a big advocate of working in iteration.

It can depend on the build and what you are trying to do, as well of course as how much money you have in your bank account lol but I would generally agree with this.
This is one thing that I love about turbo builds. I feel like they suit this method much easier.

If you already have a 4AGE you could turbo that at low boost while you build your motor.
If you need to swap in a 4AGE you could do that first and just buy a second cheap motor to build.

Or in this case you could get the motor, rebuild it with those pistons and poncams or better a Kelford 193-T and put that motor in. Even with just that you would be making 25-30% more power than a stock 4AGE.
Then you start putting together your turbo kit.
Then you could slap on your turbo running a few PSI boost.
Then finally you could install good engine management.
Or really any order you wanted. You could do engine management first then boost then the built motor.
Then once you get enough power to blow up a drivetrain or two tackle that.

[oldeskewltoy]

Alright so how about this.
16V 7age.
10.45:1 comp pistons.
Turbo.
And that LEEN J160 tranny (fixed that for ya).

That's about $10,000, give or take a grand.

[MisterJerk]

Coming from a purist... I would keep the motor stock(or stock rebuilt), EFI, the whole shebang with some bolt ons, i.e. header, exhaust, intake. Spend your money on bushings, suspension, diff. Then, the important part, have fun with it and learn how the chassis works and drives.
I see a ton of overly ambitious projects that never get finished, please dont be one of them.

[gotzoom?]

What MisterJerk said. All the car needs is a freshly rebuilt 4AGE to be a blast to drive. I have plenty of fun on track harassing much faster cars on track. Plus, the feeling of going over a crest or around a corner with your foot flat on the floor is much better than the feeling when you lift.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

What MisterJerk said. All the car needs is a freshly rebuilt 4AGE to be a blast to drive. I have plenty of fun on track harassing much faster cars on track. Plus, the feeling of going over a crest or around a corner with your foot flat on the floor is much better than the feeling when you lift.

I guess different strokes for different folks. I don't need a ton of power but I would never own a 4AGE or any fun car with less than 160-180 CHP.

Less than that I find extremely boring. Plus I hate getting passed by V6 mini vans at stop lights and needing to rev to 6k RPM to make any power.

I also much prefer the feeling of needing to lift because you know there is more there when you want/need it.

[oldeskewltoy]

I would never own a 4AGE or any fun car with less than 160-180 CHP.

Less than that I find extremely boring.

THAT explains a LOT! and NO offense meant....


coming from the MR2/AW11 camp you don't completely understand the AE86 crowd.... as I don't fully comprehend the AW11 crowd, so I help where I know.... and try to learn where I don't....

The AE86 is all about nimble... flick-able... the AE86 driving style is one of momentum driving. Most devout AE86 owners know they are slower than a mini van, and are good with it... because a mini van just cant do what an AE86 can..... I don't remember having driven an MR2, I assume it is a lot like my TVR... mostly flat handling... driver sits low and flat, the car craves more power, the AE86 doesn't crave more power (more power isn't bad... just not required to have fun), the AE86 craves a driver....

[Ae86-George]

What MisterJerk said. All the car needs is a freshly rebuilt 4AGE to be a blast to drive. I have plenty of fun on track harassing much faster cars on track. Plus, the feeling of going over a crest or around a corner with your foot flat on the floor is much better than the feeling when you lift.

Lol the foot flat on the floor is what I am trying to get away from. I drive a old beetle every day haha.

[Ae86-George]

Coming from a purist... I would keep the motor stock(or stock rebuilt), EFI, the whole shebang with some bolt ons, i.e. header, exhaust, intake. Spend your money on bushings, suspension, diff. Then, the important part, have fun with it and learn how the chassis works and drives.
I see a ton of overly ambitious projects that never get finished, please dont be one of them.

Yeah. I will put a cheapie 4age in it till I finish this build. This is the "ooh some day...." Build.

[burdickjp]

coming from the MR2/AW11 camp you don't completely understand the AE86 crowd.... as I don't fully comprehend the AW11 crowd, so I help where I know.... and try to learn where I don't....

Maybe I can help? I've had seat time in both, albeit more in the AW11 than the AE86.

I've driven a 4A-GZE AW11 and a 3S-GTE AW11. I don't remember the one time I drove a 16V AW11. I've owned a 20v AW11 with a C56 and one with a C60.
Of all of them I preferred the character of the 20v C60 the most. It was nimble, responsive, and had wonderful power delivery. In such a manner as to inspire confidence. It did not need any more power.
The 3S was boring, even back-to-back with my 20v. Once it was on boost, that was it. The 4A-GZE felt like a slower but slightly more fun 3S, as power kept building to redline, rather than falling off.

I've had a bigport and 20v AE86 and can say that the bigport felt a little wheezy, and the 20v needed better gearing. I'm not sure I feel the AE86 and AW11 are that different of equations. They're both cars with a gestault reputation.
If I were to guess, it's probably easier to keep that holistic balance with an AW11, as easily swapped drivetrains are numerous and the suspension is familiar to most owners. It may be more difficult to maintain that balance with the AE86.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

I think it has a lot less to do with the chassis than it does the driver. I haven't driven an AE86 under it's own power but I have driven enough similar cars to know what I want to feel when I'm driving.
For me in any car if I have time to sit and think about how slowly the tach is climbing in third gear it's too gutless.

I guess to each their own but I just don't understand how anyone can consider much less than 150 WHP fun in any chassis. Unless it weighed like 500 lbs.

[Ae86-George]

I think it has a lot less to do with the chassis than it does the driver. I haven't driven an AE86 under it's own power but I have driven enough similar cars to know what I want to feel when I'm driving.
For me in any car if I have time to sit and think about how slowly the tach is climbing in third gear it's too gutless.

I guess to each their own but I just don't understand how anyone can consider much less than 150 WHP fun in any chassis. Unless it weighed like 500 lbs.

Brother? Finally someone that agrees with me.

[Ae86-George]

Let me ask this. Would it be better to build a 7age.
Or spend that money on building a super strong lower end 4age and keep it high rpm.

[Illegal_Garage]

Get a BEAMS
200+ hp 6 speed
Under $2000

Max