My NA 4age bigport street build

mr2mk1hero
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My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby mr2mk1hero » Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:16 am

New here and relatively new to the whole 4AGE thing.

It all started some 6 months ago when I bought my MR2 mk1.

I just loved the car for a long time and really wanted one. The time came and I bought one of only 2 for sale in my country. I live in a tiny country in south-eastern Europe. Things are different here. Parts are hard to find, I spend fortunes on shipping, labor is cheap, expertise and quality is scarce. I dont mind, all I want is to get my MR2 into great shape and drive it to my heart's content.

I bought the car because it had very little rust. It had a complete paint job done (one of the things that are done properly here) and it had a sunroof. I didnt want the t-bar. Just a matter of personal taste. the t-bar is great I'm sure. the mr2 is red of course.

When I bought the car i didnt even know what a 4AGE is. The car was driveable when I bought it. 2nd gear grinded. 5th gear poped out, the engine was drinking a bit more oil than it should. Timing was off. Otherwise fine.

Fast forward through a montage of endless research, BGB, haynes and forum reading and here I am. Mad in love with the 4age and the mr2, with the engine and transmission out of the car. Doing a full rebuild on both. my mechanical experience is zero. But I removed both myself. Using mindless persistence, surprising patience and fueling myself with visions of a future where I drive the MR2 through a series of bends along the coastline.
I have a 1987 MR2 with a 7rib 42mm crank 4age and bigport head.

Fast forward through some more research I decided to not just rebuild, but improve the engine a bit since I am at it.

My engine build got boiled down to this:
    Tomei 264 poncams. This item is still under debate and I am still open to suggestions.
    uprated valve springs
    10.3 smallport pistons - already bought a set from Perfect cirlce, new old stock, 0.5mm oversize
    Aftermarket conrods - Brian Crower sportsman or something similar along that line, if you have any suggestions. Considering some blacktop rods that are on sale here. Heard they need different bearings or something
    A bit of head and block shaving to get more compression. I dont know what my target compression should be and how much I should cut to get there
    head porting and polishing, combustion chamber deburing, 3angle valve job as per trd bible,
    new bearings, oil pump, water pump
    all new gaskets from Toyota - already bought - 350 USD for a bunch of gaskets.
    Megasquirt pnp standalone - not right away. I am already destroying myself financially. Plan to run the engine ons tock ECU for a while.
    lightweight flywheel - either fidanza or exedy
    exedy OEM clutch

Thats pretty much it I think. Let me know what you think. I am open to suggestions, opinion, anything. I know this is nothing new but to me its a dream and sounds great. I want the car to be the best it can be. I am building a street car for my own personal enjyomnet and pleasure. Not interested in competitive racing, turbos, engine swaps, etc. Want to keep things original but also make everything a bit better in the process. Maybe a track day once in a year or two.

Fast forward just a bit more in the future. I decided that since I am going through the whole thing of rebuilding and basically restoring a car it would be great to document the whole journey. So I started a blog (haven't we all?)
Here's my latest operation - I disassembled the engine block http://www.driving4answers.com/how-to-e ... /#more-443

Since I am a newbie, the blog is very newbie friendly. Most likely boring for the 4age veterans out there. There's some leisurely philosophy on the blog as well. if youre daft enough to read that sort of junk.

Anyways, thats pretty much it. Let me know what you think of the build. Any other comments welcome as well.
I will of course be updating this thread as I go along.
I have a long standing thread on the mr2.com forums on the build - "4age street build". If you are mad and interested in more details. give it a look :)
Check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwosUn ... xtqkNJ3Fbg
Check out my blog: http://www.driving4answers.com/
Heaps of 4A-GE and MR2 mk1 aw11 content on both.

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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:26 am

Welcome to C4AG
I think you and I have discussed most of the things asked in your first post so I'll leave it to others to chime in their opinions.

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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby mr2mk1hero » Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:26 am

Definitely,
yoshi along with OST have been valuable allies and sources of knowledge throughout my learning experience. I owe you big thanks!
Check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwosUn ... xtqkNJ3Fbg
Check out my blog: http://www.driving4answers.com/
Heaps of 4A-GE and MR2 mk1 aw11 content on both.

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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby mr2mk1hero » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:18 am

measured my chamber CC volume last night

Decided to make a little video out of it. In case anyone is interested, this is the fastest, cheapest and easiest method I found to measure chamber cc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIyn...ature=youtu.be
All four of my chambers were between 36.2-36.3 or so CCs. Which is good I guess. Means the head is uncut.
Check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwosUn ... xtqkNJ3Fbg
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Heaps of 4A-GE and MR2 mk1 aw11 content on both.

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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby Illegal_Garage » Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:02 am

For a street build I would stick with the stock ECU
you can clock the OEM ecu to get an extra 800~1000 rpms
setting the red line at about 8000

with an 8000 rpm red line I would stick with 256/264 8.35mm lift cams combo
de-shroud the combustion chamber
slight enlarge the exhaust ports
intake ports i'd leave alone
some nice aftermarket pistons will bump the compression up pretty good
larger injectors from the wreckers say 215~235cc or so
TRD MLS .8mm head gaskets
rods are nice but not 100% needed
flywheel will make a noticeable difference

There is a lot of great engine builders in Ireland
I know a guy I can turn you onto
He might be busy though because the lakes is coming up in 5 or 6 weeks though

Max
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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby aaron_1234 » Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:34 am

I kept the stock rods because they have oil squirters in them. I just added ARP bolts on the big ends. You will need to rebore your big ends after doing this.

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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:38 am

aaron_1234 wrote:I kept the stock rods because they have oil squirters in them. I just added ARP bolts on the big ends. You will need to rebore your big ends after doing this.


Brian Crower and many other aftermarket rods have a notch in the side of the rod that acts as a squirter but doesn't weaken the rod like the hole through the big end like stock rods.

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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:45 pm

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:
aaron_1234 wrote:I kept the stock rods because they have oil squirters in them. I just added ARP bolts on the big ends. You will need to rebore your big ends after doing this.


Brian Crower and many other aftermarket rods have a notch in the side of the rod that acts as a squirter but doesn't weaken the rod like the hole through the big end like stock rods.



Correct me if I'm wrong...... They lubricate different things...... the drillings in the stock rods spray oil on to the thrust side of the cylinder wall, the notches spray oil up to the bottom of the piston.... no?
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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:48 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:
yoshimitsuspeed wrote:
aaron_1234 wrote:I kept the stock rods because they have oil squirters in them. I just added ARP bolts on the big ends. You will need to rebore your big ends after doing this.


Brian Crower and many other aftermarket rods have a notch in the side of the rod that acts as a squirter but doesn't weaken the rod like the hole through the big end like stock rods.



Correct me if I'm wrong...... They lubricate different things...... the drillings in the stock rods spray oil on to the thrust side of the cylinder wall, the notches spray oil up to the bottom of the piston.... no?


In a static situation this could be a big factor. With the crank spinning 50 time per second the centrifugal forces are going to fling oil everywhere. Yes the stock design may focus a little more in that one area while the groove may focus more in another area but it will be going everywhere. Also remember that the angle of the rod changes throughout the stroke so sometimes it will be aimed more toward one side, other times toward the other and at TDC more towards the top.

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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby Rogue-AE95 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:26 pm

I thought the 20v blocks had oil squirters, so their rods wouldn't need oiling to cool the bottoms of the pistons? The slot on the BT rods was to replace that oiling hole on the thrust side.

Do most aftermarket rods have that oiling hole on the thrust side?
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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby MisterJerk » Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:07 am

Illegal_Garage wrote:For a street build I would stick with the stock ECU
you can clock the OEM ecu to get an extra 800~1000 rpms
setting the red line at about 8000



How? Inquiring minds want to know... I want to try it.

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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:15 am

It's done by changing a crystal in the ECU. If you do some searches for crystal, redline ecu etc you should be able to find more info on it. Here is a thread I found quickly that discusses it a bit.
http://www.mr2.com/forums/threads/48532-rev-limiter

I have never done it because of the effects it will have. If you raise your redline 1000 RPM then the ECU will be providing timing and fuel for 7500 when it's at 8500.

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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:40 pm

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:It's done by changing a crystal in the ECU. If you do some searches for crystal, redline ecu etc you should be able to find more info on it. Here is a thread I found quickly that discusses it a bit.
http://www.mr2.com/forums/threads/48532-rev-limiter

I have never done it because of the effects it will have. If you raise your redline 1000 RPM then the ECU will be providing timing and fuel for 7500 when it's at 8500.



timing isn't going to change... but fueling might....
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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:26 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:
yoshimitsuspeed wrote:It's done by changing a crystal in the ECU. If you do some searches for crystal, redline ecu etc you should be able to find more info on it. Here is a thread I found quickly that discusses it a bit.
http://www.mr2.com/forums/threads/48532-rev-limiter

I have never done it because of the effects it will have. If you raise your redline 1000 RPM then the ECU will be providing timing and fuel for 7500 when it's at 8500.



timing isn't going to change... but fueling might....


The timing will change because the ECU changes the timing based on load and RPM.
Since I don't have a factory timing map I will use this one instead.
Image

Since you are basically making the ECU think that 8000 RPM is 7000 RPM at 8000 RPM it will be providing fuel and timing as though it's at 7000 RPM.
So now looking at the top line the timing is 42 deg BTDC when it should be 44. That shouldn't be a problem and could be fixed by advancing the dizzy 2 deg but the whole map isn't scaled the same.

What if the timing is retarded at 5000 RPM because the motor is most likely to detonate there. But now the ECU thinks that it's at 4500 RPM when it's actually at 5000.
Now looking at the bottom line (high load) the ECU is advancing timing to 14 deg instead of the 11 it should be.

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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:40 am

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:
oldeskewltoy wrote:
yoshimitsuspeed wrote:It's done by changing a crystal in the ECU. If you do some searches for crystal, redline ecu etc you should be able to find more info on it. Here is a thread I found quickly that discusses it a bit.
http://www.mr2.com/forums/threads/48532-rev-limiter

I have never done it because of the effects it will have. If you raise your redline 1000 RPM then the ECU will be providing timing and fuel for 7500 when it's at 8500.



timing isn't going to change... but fueling might....


The timing will change because the ECU changes the timing based on load and RPM.
Since I don't have a factory timing map I will use this one instead.
Image

Since you are basically making the ECU think that 8000 RPM is 7000 RPM at 8000 RPM it will be providing fuel and timing as though it's at 7000 RPM.
So now looking at the top line the timing is 42 deg BTDC when it should be 44. That shouldn't be a problem and could be fixed by advancing the dizzy 2 deg but the whole map isn't scaled the same.

What if the timing is retarded at 5000 RPM because the motor is most likely to detonate there. But now the ECU thinks that it's at 4500 RPM when it's actually at 5000.
Now looking at the bottom line (high load) the ECU is advancing timing to 14 deg instead of the 11 it should be.



It is quite common for engines to be at full advance from 5000, to 6000 all the way to redline. Im pretty sure if you look at the Ross - inside the MR2 ecu you will find something similar.... as to a boosted car using 40 degrees of ignition... that seems quite odd... also MANY tuners and many timing maps will actually PULL timing (not add it) at the very top end because of the extreme temps that can cause on a long top speed pull*.

Just to clarify to you... "pull" isn't a dyno run, in this case "pull" refers to track use


also... looking @ the map you posted... there isn't much difference in timing between 7500 and 8500... so my point is somewhat accurate......
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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:57 am

oldeskewltoy wrote:

It is quite common for engines to be at full advance from 5000, to 6000 all the way to redline. Im pretty sure if you look at the Ross - inside the MR2 ecu you will find something similar.... as to a boosted car using 40 degrees of ignition... that seems quite odd... also MANY tuners and many timing maps will actually PULL timing (not add it) at the very top end because of the extreme temps that can cause on a long top speed pull*.

Just to clarify to you... "pull" isn't a dyno run, in this case "pull" refers to track use


also... looking @ the map you posted... there isn't much difference in timing between 7500 and 8500... so my point is somewhat accurate......


What does full advance mean? There is no limit on how much advance an ECU can run. Tell it to run 180 deg advance and it will.

The 40 deg timing is at low load, IE throttle mostly closed.
I also don't understand what you mean by pull timing. This insinuates there is a baseline. If you were using a piggyback for example you could pull timing in regards to the stock map. If you are tuning with aftermarket engine management you will advance and retard (pull) timing until you find the optimal timing. They will pull timing if they initially added too much advance and they will advance timing if they think it needs a little more.
Changing the crystal will change the ratio across the spectrum by the percentage of the increase. Just like I said if you increased the redline from 7500-8500 you have changed it by about 13%.
This means that at 4000 RPM the ECU thinks the RPM are 13% lower or 3500 RPM.

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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:17 am

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:
oldeskewltoy wrote:

It is quite common for engines to be at full advance from 5000, to 6000 all the way to redline. Im pretty sure if you look at the Ross - inside the MR2 ecu you will find something similar.... as to a boosted car using 40 degrees of ignition... that seems quite odd... also MANY tuners and many timing maps will actually PULL timing (not add it) at the very top end because of the extreme temps that can cause on a long top speed pull*.

Just to clarify to you... "pull" isn't a dyno run, in this case "pull" refers to track use


also... looking @ the map you posted... there isn't much difference in timing between 7500 and 8500... so my point is somewhat accurate......


What does full advance mean? There is no limit on how much advance an ECU can run. Tell it to run 180 deg advance and it will.

The 40 deg timing is at low load, IE throttle mostly closed.
I also don't understand what you mean by pull timing. This insinuates there is a baseline. If you were using a piggyback for example you could pull timing in regards to the stock map. If you are tuning with aftermarket engine management you will advance and retard (pull) timing until you find the optimal timing. They will pull timing if they initially added too much advance and they will advance timing if they think it needs a little more.
Changing the crystal will change the ratio across the spectrum by the percentage of the increase. Just like I said if you increased the redline from 7500-8500 you have changed it by about 13%.
This means that at 4000 RPM the ECU thinks the RPM are 13% lower or 3500 RPM.




In this context - "pull timing" - for example @ WOT 7500 - 35 degrees of timing, 8000 - 35 degrees of timing, 8500 - 33 degrees of timing. Pulling the timing back a little bit back at the top end. This tends to not hurt performance, and yet can save an engine from destroying itself

As to clocking... 3500 and 4000 aren't that significantly different either.... the significance does become more apparent @ 1750-2000. BUT... with performance mods whose to say that all the modifications performed wont like the changes in the ECU.......????
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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:20 am

oldeskewltoy wrote:
In this context - "pull timing" - for example @ WOT 7500 - 35 degrees of timing, 8000 - 35 degrees of timing, 8500 - 33 degrees of timing. Pulling the timing back a little bit back at the top end. This tends to not hurt performance, and yet can save an engine from destroying itself

As to clocking... 3500 and 4000 aren't that significantly different either.... the significance does become more apparent @ 1750-2000. BUT... with performance mods whose to say that all the modifications performed wont like the changes in the ECU.......????


I have never heard it used in this "context".
Timing is related to RPM.
If you get knock at 5500 you pull timing at 5500. If you exceed peak average cylinder pressure and loose power at 8k RPM you pull timing at 8000 RPM.
If you have too much knock from 3200 to 6800 then you pull timing from 3200 to 6800. It doesn't matter what the timing was at 3100.
You are correct that you won't usually see any big timing change between 500 RPM but a couple degrees could be the difference between your motor running well and getting dangerous detonation. Sure you could pull base timing 2 deg to bring it back under control but then the rest of your map is also at least 2 deg off optimal and in areas possibly much more.

I just remembered that lifting the lid has timing maps. They aren't in BTDC but you can look at the numbers and see the percent in variation.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... GU&cad=rja

From 4400 to 4800 RPM there is a 28% difference in timing. That is huge.
From 4400 to 5200 there is an 18% difference. If that difference didn't need to be there it wouldn't be there.
In this case it should be retarding the timing so it won't be a risk but you will be loosing power. Advancing base timing will be dangerous because there are areas that dip and they dip for a good reason.
Between 3200 and 4200 there tends to be a big dip in timing. I am guessing this is advancing timing. But if you shift that dip to the left you could be advancing timing in the wrong places.

Will this cause a problem?
Well it probably depends on how aggressive your build is. On a stock largeport there is probably plenty of margin and so it may not cause any damage. It may however loose you notable power in areas. If you have a build that pushes the limits of the stock engine management like high compression this could be the difference between a safe build and blowing it up.
Since it doesn't make much sense to raise the redline on a stock build it doesn't make much sense to do it at all.
It could work out okay, it could not. My point is that there is no easy way to exactly predict the results and it's a lot of time money and work to prove it out right. You would need to do before and after dynos, you would need to monitor AFRs and knock. You would need to play with timing to see what you could do with it.
In the end it's fully possible you could gain 13% in redline and loose an average of 13% in power across the range. Without doing with the proper testing there is no way to know and doing it with the proper testing isn't worth it because just for the dyno time you could buy a cheaper form of engine management.

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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:17 pm

As usually... the OP is being left behind... apologies to mr2mk1hero

there is no need to "clock" his ECU faster... stock cams stop making power @ 6600 rpm, the ECU "stops" @ 7500 (in most cases) That leaves the OP a few options without having to screw around too much with management.

Stock cams are "240" duration, that leaves him a few cam options. He can go 256, even some 264 and still twist it to redline. they work with compression And as of course you will no doubt say... your kit is just so great..... :roll:

The stock cams can be bumped to about 10 to 1 with little of no side effects as evidence of the eastern European/Singapore pistons originally equipped @10 to 1.
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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:44 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:As usually... the OP is being left behind... apologies to mr2mk1hero

there is no need to "clock" his ECU faster... stock cams stop making power @ 6600 rpm, the ECU "stops" @ 7500 (in most cases) That leaves the OP a few options without having to screw around too much with management.


Illegal Garage made the suggestion to overclock the ECU.
I was just pointing out potential concerns with doing so.

As I said directly above your last post there is no good reason for most people to raise the redline on any setup that could be run by the stock ECU.
There may be the odd situation like if you race and need to keep the stock ECU where gaining a few hundred RPM could gain you some advantage even if the motor is starting to fall on it's face.

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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby mr2mk1hero » Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:16 am

oldeskewltoy wrote:As usually... the OP is being left behind... apologies to mr2mk1hero

there is no need to "clock" his ECU faster... stock cams stop making power @ 6600 rpm, the ECU "stops" @ 7500 (in most cases) That leaves the OP a few options without having to screw around too much with management.

Stock cams are "240" duration, that leaves him a few cam options. He can go 256, even some 264 and still twist it to redline. they work with compression And as of course you will no doubt say... your kit is just so great..... :roll:

The stock cams can be bumped to about 10 to 1 with little of no side effects as evidence of the eastern European/Singapore pistons originally equipped @10 to 1.


:lol: I'm used to it, dont worry.
I have decided that I am definitely staying with the stock cams and am just bumping the compression. I definitely wont be messing with the ECU crystals, power cores and flux capacitors.... :)
Here's my reasoning behind it: http://www.driving4answers.com/4age-eng ... wngrading/
To sum it up, i dont really need any extra power for what I am doing.
I will also be deshrouding the combustion chambers and doing porting and polishing of the head.
I thought about bumping the compression up to 10.5:1. Is that too much? I will be putting in RON 98 premium fuel. Is there any risk of detonation in case of 10.5:1?
Last edited by mr2mk1hero on Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:29 am

I understand the money side of it but I have to disagree with your bad list.

The bad –
lopy idle
more stress on the valvetrain
having to pump the gas a bit when I start the car
less driveability
worse mpg maybe


The poncams don't have a lopy idle. I have heard of people raising the idle by a couple hundred RPM to smooth it out a little but at that point it sounds like any other 4AGE.
The stress on the valvetrain is negligeable. Maybe it will only last 150k miles instead of 200k. Not that I have ever heard of a customers valvetrain wearing out before other components. It's hard to put an exact mile number on it because most people who install cams drive them much harder and kill them much faster. It's not because of the cams but the way they are driven.

Less driveability and worse gas mileage are also relative to the build. Both will suffer if you don't throw the proper amount of compression at it. Neither should suffer with the correct compression and a half decent tune.

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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby mr2mk1hero » Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:54 am

What I am saying about the poncams I am not basing on my experience - i never even held them in my hands let alone installed them in the car.
My info is based on what other people said, in this case on mr2tailbreaker and his built. I quote what he said "my car idles like a muscle car, kinda lopy" and he was slightly annoyed by the fact that he had to "pump the gas to get the car started".

All that aside, I have decided not to put them in my engine and that is just me. I am sure they are a great piece of kit, but for my application I have decided to go another route. There is no need to convince me of anything. Every merchandise has its customer.

Since you're all so active on the thread you could help me answer that which actually matters to me :D
1. is 10.5:1 a good compression for stock cams?
2. I am planning to get my connecting rods balanced. Should I first restore the rods with shot peening and then get them balanced or should I first balance them and then get them shot peened? They have a brownish color now, I want them to look as they did when new - will shot peening achieve that?
Also, where can I remove material, for balancing purposes, on the bottom and low end of the late bigport connecting rods? (the beefy ones)
3. Should I already buy STD conrod and main bearings or wait for the machine shop to tell me the sizes? (i know this is a stupid question but i just had to ask)
4. When I look for a part number for connecting rod bushing in toyodiy it says "not applicable". Should I change the conrod bushings or leave them be?

p.s. yoshi, check your inbox i have one final question about ordering something
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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby Toy86 » Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:39 am

This is some good stuff! I hope im not thread jacking here, but since you guys are talking about cams, what point do you need to upgrade the valve springs to prevent valve floating(I hope i term correct)? What's the max cam you can run with the stock 4AG valve train including shims and buckets? There used to be an awesome thread on the old forums about this, but i can't find it. Thanks!

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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:21 am

my opinion in red

mr2mk1hero wrote:
Since you're all so active on the thread you could help me answer that which actually matters to me :D
1. is 10.5:1 a good compression for stock cams?
with a properly deshrouded chamber... yes
2. I am planning to get my connecting rods balanced. Should I first restore the rods with shot peening and then get them balanced or should I first balance them and then get them shot peened? They have a brownish color now, I want them to look as they did when new - will shot peening achieve that?
Also, where can I remove material, for balancing purposes, on the bottom and low end of the late bigport connecting rods? (the beefy ones)
leave this to your chosen machine shop. Ask them to recondition the rods, and balance the whole rotating assembly
3. Should I already buy STD conrod and main bearings or wait for the machine shop to tell me the sizes? (i know this is a stupid question but i just had to ask)
if you dont KNOW... wait for someone who does. Bearing sizing is very important in a 4AGE
4. When I look for a part number for connecting rod bushing in toyodiy it says "not applicable". Should I change the conrod bushings or leave them be?
see answer to 2



In addition... set your squish @ 1mm - you could go as tight as .8mm, but 1mm gives you room for one more rebuild. Even though you are going with stock cams, I'd recommend getting a set of adjustable timing pulleys. This will allow you to accurately dial the cams in. They will also allow you to "detune" the compression if you do get a bit of detonation
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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:27 am

Toy86 wrote:This is some good stuff! I hope im not thread jacking here, but since you guys are talking about cams, what point do you need to upgrade the valve springs to prevent valve floating(I hope i term correct)? What's the max cam you can run with the stock 4AG valve train including shims and buckets? There used to be an awesome thread on the old forums about this, but i can't find it. Thanks!


stock springs don't tend to float with most "bolt-in" cams that can run using stock springs. Stock springs are good for 8.+mm of valve lift, or about 8.2mm of cam lift (yes they are different). They are also capable of rpm levels up to about 8000 rpm. If you need more capable springs, Toda sells a very nice set capable of over 10mm lift, and rpm levels closer to 9000. Over 9000 and I'd run Atlantic dual springs.
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby mr2mk1hero » Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:23 am

oldeskewltoy wrote:my opinion in red

mr2mk1hero wrote:
Since you're all so active on the thread you could help me answer that which actually matters to me :D
1. is 10.5:1 a good compression for stock cams?
with a properly deshrouded chamber... yes
2. I am planning to get my connecting rods balanced. Should I first restore the rods with shot peening and then get them balanced or should I first balance them and then get them shot peened? They have a brownish color now, I want them to look as they did when new - will shot peening achieve that?
Also, where can I remove material, for balancing purposes, on the bottom and low end of the late bigport connecting rods? (the beefy ones)
leave this to your chosen machine shop. Ask them to recondition the rods, and balance the whole rotating assembly
3. Should I already buy STD conrod and main bearings or wait for the machine shop to tell me the sizes? (i know this is a stupid question but i just had to ask)
if you dont KNOW... wait for someone who does. Bearing sizing is very important in a 4AGE
4. When I look for a part number for connecting rod bushing in toyodiy it says "not applicable". Should I change the conrod bushings or leave them be?
see answer to 2



In addition... set your squish @ 1mm - you could go as tight as .8mm, but 1mm gives you room for one more rebuild. Even though you are going with stock cams, I'd recommend getting a set of adjustable timing pulleys. This will allow you to accurately dial the cams in. They will also allow you to "detune" the compression if you do get a bit of detonation


I just contacted the machine shop. They dont balance conrods or pistons. They cut heads, blocks, bore blocks, port and polish do valve jobs, etc. but they dont balance conrods or pistons or anything. Looks stupid to me, but on the other hand, the demand for that is 0 here so they just dont do it.

1. This means I have to do the conrod and piston balancing. I found a guy that does shot peening, sonic bath cleaning, etc. etc. How should I approach the conrod balancing thing? What should I do first. I watched a lot of videos but every connecting rod seems to be different. How would you do it? in what order? Remove material from where? I know I need a dremel tool.

2. ll get a set of adjustable cam gears if you say its smart. I shall listen to you blindly :) I am wondering tho, cant I detune the compressing with a timing gun? and dont the stock cams just go in by putting the pins according to bgb?

3. How do I set my squish? Do I just tell the machine shop thats what I want, or something else?
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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby Toy86 » Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:23 am

mr2mk1hero wrote:


In addition... set your squish @ 1mm - you could go as tight as .8mm, but 1mm gives you room for one more rebuild. Even though you are going with stock cams, I'd recommend getting a set of adjustable timing pulleys. This will allow you to accurately dial the cams in. They will also allow you to "detune" the compression if you do get a bit of detonation[/quote]

I just contacted the machine shop. They dont balance conrods or pistons. They cut heads, blocks, bore blocks, port and polish do valve jobs, etc. but they dont balance conrods or pistons or anything. Looks stupid to me, but on the other hand, the demand for that is 0 here so they just dont do it.

1. This means I have to do the conrod and piston balancing. I found a guy that does shot peening, sonic bath cleaning, etc. etc. How should I approach the conrod balancing thing? What should I do first. I watched a lot of videos but every connecting rod seems to be different. How would you do it? in what order? Remove material from where? I know I need a dremel tool.

2. ll get a set of adjustable cam gears if you say its smart. I shall listen to you blindly :) I am wondering tho, cant I detune the compressing with a timing gun? and dont the stock cams just go in by putting the pins according to bgb?

3. How do I set my squish? Do I just tell the machine shop thats what I want, or something else?

I just have input on ur 1. question. That sucks that the machine shop u contact can't do balancing; they must not have the machine to do it. Is there any other machine shop in the area that are reputable that can possibly do this in ur area? When i got my bottom end balanced on my turbo block, the machine shop i took it too, told me to bring the Flywheel, crank pulley, and everything that belongs in the block. I highly recommend that you find a machine shop to do it for you that has the capability to do a balance job. When i got my bottom end back i saw where they shaved on the bottom of the con rods to balance them, and shaving marks on the flywheel, and crank pulley along with the timing pulley as well. They also told me that all the parts only fit one way so it maintains its balance while i finished the rebuild. I wish i would have taken pictures of those marks sorry.
Last edited by Toy86 on Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:25 am

THIS /\


never follow anyone blindly.... NEVER!

By using adjustable timing gears on the camshafts you can move the camshafts to change when the valves open, and close. By changing the intake valve closing point and making it happen later, it allows some of the compression to escape - thus "lowering" the compression

balancing the rotation assembly is VERY important in MY opinion. Is it required for a stock build... no.

Rods are made from very hard steel, typically they need a large belt sander to remove material from either end. A Dremel will take you forever.... If you want to do some simple balancing, get a scale to measure to 1 gram accuracy, measure your 4 pistons w/pins, and measure your 4 rods... fit the lightest piston on the heaviest rod, and proceed to the heaviest piston on the lightest rod. That is rudimentary balancing.

Squish is the final distance between the edge of the piston and the flat part of the head. This is typically taken care of by the machinist.

About your machinist... if he doesn't do balancing.... I'm a bit concerned about his ability to machine the 4AGE properly... are there any other machinists?
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: My NA 4age bigport street build

Postby mr2mk1hero » Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:43 pm

I will trust you blindly not to trust you blindly then :)

I dont mind if it takes me forever with the dremel. I have time and patience :) I at least want to give it a try and see how it goes, if it doesnt work out I will proceed to the rudeimentary balancing.
I thought about grinding the cast marks and then balancing each end separately. Where would you remove material from? Shot peen first or last?
I know balancing isnt needed on a stock build but I really want to do it. I want the engine to be the best it can with the money I can spend on it.

All the machine shops here are like that. They just do the basic engine rebuild. Its all on a budget. Once in a while someone asks them to do something more performance oriented and they do it, but its never at a level of dedication and attention to detail you can see in the good machine shops in the U.S. . Their goal is to make an engine run again for the least money possible, and thats pretty much it. Balancing stuff needs time and doesnt make much a difference so they skip that of course. I am sure they could do if they wanted, but they just dont.
There are some machine shops in neihboring countries (300-400km away) but they are marginally better at best.....
I have planned to give them all the parts and a bunch of papers with very clear instruction on how to do what and check everything with them three times, as I dont trust their knowledge. I also planned to ask to be there while they do everything.
Check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwosUn ... xtqkNJ3Fbg
Check out my blog: http://www.driving4answers.com/
Heaps of 4A-GE and MR2 mk1 aw11 content on both.