Turbo build help required.

PDB · Postby **PDB** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:01 pm

Ok been searching, using tapatalk but I'm unable to find some answers.

1. Are there any bigger injectors which will fit without modification suitable for my 4AGZE engine running a Holset HX25W Turbo and Poncams.

2. Is the standard FPR up to the job of an uprated fuel pump, something like a Warlbough 200lph unit ?

3. Is the stock oil pump up to the job of an after market oil cooler + Turbo install ?

4. Is the stock knock sensor fit for purpose ? I'm planning on using stand alone management, unsure what type yet.

5. Is the 20v CPS a worthwhile choice or should I look at others.

Any other advise you knowledgeable folks care to throw at me too ? It's for my KP60 build for those of you that didn't know.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

jdm86gtz · Postby **jdm86gtz** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:23 pm

I have a 4A-GZE converted to turbo using an SR20 T25g turbo still running on the AE101 GZE ecu and when I built the car from scratch I fitted a Walbro 255 fuel pump.

I also have an Omex 600 ecu ready to fit to this engine along with RC 440cc injectors and a Sard FPR.
When I built my engine I fitted a HKS oil pressure increase kit that contains an additional spring for the relief valve and a 1mm oil restriction for the head supply, I also have a thermostatic oil cooler. I fed the turbo oil feed from where the oem pressure sensor screws into the main oil gallery. I have only about 3000 Km n this engine so far but pressure and temperature are consistent .
For the Omex I have they can supply a knock sensor if required, and this ecu uses a 36-1 crank mounted trigger wheel.

ToeKnee805 · Postby **ToeKnee805** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:22 pm

1. supra 440cc injectors will work if you switch over the pigtails

2. i have been told the stock FPR cannot handle a 255 walboro, you may need to upgrade your stock fpr

3. stock oil pump is fine for me, and im on a Bluetop with a t25 turbo

4. bluetop doesnt have knock sensor

5. im running dizzy ignition

PDB · Postby **PDB** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:22 pm

Thanks, I'm gathering all the parts this time before I start so can minimise down time.

What year supra we talking ? Or engine code please.

Will keep updating progress as it happens.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Postby **yoshimitsuspeed** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:05 pm

There are a ton of injectors that would be essentially P&P. FIrst you need to set your power goal.
Same with fuel pump. Only buy a bigger fuel pump if you need it. My friend is still on his NA AW11 fuel pump running 21 PSI twincharged. The stock FPR will handle a 200 but I wouldn't go any bigger.
Same goes with sizing your turbo. I would need to do some research to give any input on that turbo but those turbos are designed for very high pressure ratios. If you wanted to run 40 PSI boost an HX would be an excellent choice. If you want to run 10 there are other turbos that would be much better.

Oil pump will be fine

Don't bother with any 4A knock sensors. If you go aftermarket engine management use whatever is recommended for it.

What is a CPS?

What are your power goals?
Are you doing anything to the motor to prepare for boost?
How much research have you done?

Postby **yoshimitsuspeed** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:09 pm

jdm86gtz wrote:I have a 4A-GZE converted to turbo using an SR20 T25g turbo still running on the AE101 GZE ecu and when I built the car from scratch I fitted a Walbro 255 fuel pump.

I also have an Omex 600 ecu ready to fit to this engine along with RC 440cc injectors and a Sard FPR.
When I built my engine I fitted a HKS oil pressure increase kit that contains an additional spring for the relief valve and a 1mm oil restriction for the head supply, I also have a thermostatic oil cooler. I fed the turbo oil feed from where the oem pressure sensor screws into the main oil gallery. I have only about 3000 Km n this engine so far but pressure and temperature are consistent .
For the Omex I have they can supply a knock sensor if required, and this ecu uses a 36-1 crank mounted trigger wheel.

Those oil pressure kits are snake oil for most builds and the restrictor could be detrimental.
Restrictors were originally used on dry sump setups because the pumps were so big that sometimes they overwhelmed the head with oil flow.
Naturally as usual the tuner world said

If it's needed on a 250 HP NA Formula Atlantic motor then it must be needed on my stock 4A

and everyone started buying them thinking it was an automatic upgrade.
There is also no reason to run more pressure in almost any situation. You just rob more power from the motor doing so.

PDB · Postby **PDB** » Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:52 am

Yoshi my goal is 250/300 HP realistically that's going to be flywheel.

Will need a fuel pump as currently just running a facet pump for the bike carbs

plan is to use the facet pump to supply a swirl tank and then install a high pressure pump and lines for the 4AGZE engine.

The 4AGZE engine is going to get new rings and shells or anything else it may need once it's fully stripped. I'm going to clean up the head and chambers and pop in my Poncams. Was planning on running basically stock compression as I want big boost, not the best way to generate power I know but the car is mainly just show so the big boost noise makes me go weak at the knees

This is the turbo and manifold I have

Will be running a air/air inter cooler and oil cooler for the engine too.

Reason for wanting plug and play style injectors is simply as I have the plugs from the 4AGZE injectors and would be easy to use the original rail too, open to suggestions on other ideas though.

A CPS (crank position sensor) or trigger wheel as you guys might call it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

PDB · Postby **PDB** » Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:57 am

This is some info on the turbo, quality turbos made here in Yorkshire I believe.

http://www.myholsetturbo.com/manuals/HX25_25W_27W.pdf

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Postby **yoshimitsuspeed** » Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:51 am

This is probably going to sound critical but I think it's time to step back and basically start over at the drawing board.

My turbo calculator does not have the HX25 but the HX30 is too small for 300CHP and the 25 is smaller than that. Just rough guessing some numbers I wouldn't take the HX30 much over about 250 CHP.
The HX35 seems to be a huge step up supporting a lot more flow but this thing is designed for super high pressure ratios. You would be looking at massive lag and poor overall performance though once it spooled it would probably put out some pretty good peak numbers.
Unfortunately it's hard to find maps for the 25. This is the best I could manage which really doesn't have any good info.

If the HX30 would be pushing it at 250 CHP then the 25 might make 225. Even there I suspect it will be restrictive.

http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthrea ... nterchange

Looking at this link it looks like the 25 turbine side is similar to a TD04. Some of the bigger TD04s can get into the 280 CHP range but at that point the turbine side is very restrictive and you would really benefit from stepping up to a TD05 turbine side.
If I had to guess I would imagine this turbo would get you into 200 WHP territory or so. Hopefully with very quick spool but since it's designed for such high pressure ratios the spool, efficiency and performance would all likely be less than a turbo designed for a build like yours. You only need maybe 12 PSI to make that 200 CHP or a pressure ratio of 1.8:1. You would be better off choosing a turbo with a max pressure ratio closer to 2.4:1. A turbo designed to work as high as 4:1 isn't going to be optimized to work at 1.8:1.

So in one section you say you want 250 to 300 CHP on a poncam build but in another section you say you want to do a high boost build. With poncams and a well thought out build 300 HP wouldn't require high boost.
You have a turbo that can make high boost but it can't flow enough volume to be able to make high boost on your setup and definitely not efficiently.
Then you say you want to be able to run low compression so you can run high boost.

Each of your components are optimized for different setups and none of them are optimized for your goals.

For 300 CHP here is what I would do.
Keep the poncams. Sell the HX25 and buy something along the lines of a 14B or 2860RS designed for the boost range you will be running. Either of these would give you a good balance of spool and power and should get you right around your target power.
If you have decent octane gas I would aim around 10:1 compression. Actually I would aim around 11:1 but I am going conservative for you. So 10:1 compression, 8500 RPM, peak power at probably like 7200 RPM, spool starting around 2800 RPM with full boost (16 PSI or so) around 3500 RPM and pretty quick spool over 4000.

Doing a build that gets you impressive results depends completely on pairing the right components. Otherwise you will end up with a mediocer unimpressive build just like 80% of all other 4AGE builds that result people in coming on the boards trashing the pathetic potential of the 4AGE and how they wish they had just swapped in an SR20 or K24 or something.

PDB · Postby **PDB** » Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:34 pm

Thanks, that's a lot of numbers to divulge, and learn what it all means lol

Your knowledge as always is very welcomed, it's an on going build and won't be in the car until the winter months, so I'll keep my eyes out for other options.

As for Octane were very lucky here, pump gas available is 95-97-99 and some 102, my local is the 99 Ron.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Postby **yoshimitsuspeed** » Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:42 pm

That's very good. Your 99 will be about the same as 94 here which you could do quite a lot with.
For example I am running my Blacktop at 11:1 and 7 PSI on 91 which would translate to 95 RON. Of course I am at 6000 feet so it's similar to running 5 PSI at sea level but I hope to have that up to about 10 PSI some time this summer and hope to be around 225-250 at the crank.
In a 1000 KG car that feels like quite a lot of power. Even at the 180-200 CHP I am at now I can accelerate about as fast as a 300 HP STI and also out handle them because of the weight. At least as long as I can get the power to the ground.

Since you already have the Holset it may not be the worst thing in the world to start out with it, start at low boost, start getting used to the new build and see how far it takes you.I doubt it will get you to your power goals but you may very well also hit 200 WHP and decide that it's more than enough. You can also upgrade the turbo down the road if it doesn't get you where you want to be. I suspect a different turbo could get you more power without loosing much spool but as small as the 25 is it should still spool pretty quick.

PDB · Postby **PDB** » Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:59 pm

Well been doing a bit of reading, and again looking for opinions.

If I were to go high compression running this turbo, it would make a great road car, fast spool and nice and responsive..

If I'm honest the final figure is just pub talk, I'm not looking to be the fastest, loudest car.

It's just for my entertainment and I want a turbo.

How would you utilise the components I've got ? As in what compression ratio.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Postby **yoshimitsuspeed** » Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:16 pm

I would do 10:1 to 10.5:1 with the poncams.
Since you already have that turbo it should be a decent starting point.
Get a good wideband if you don't have one. I assume you have or will be getting good engine management. I don't remember what you are running there. If your wideband has good knock control then use that and or use the best knock monitoring you can justify such as a knocklight, detcan or both.
Start out with 5-6 PSI and start getting comfortable with it. Once you are start slowly turning up the boost paying close attention to AFRs and looking for detonation.
From there it will be up to you to see if you reach the limits of the engine and or turbo and decide what the next step is and or if it's worth the time and money to make it faster.

PDB · Postby **PDB** » Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:26 pm

Ok thanks. Will be getting full stand alone management, but looking for a tuner currently, once I find one and have seen some of there work, I will get something they like using as its probably the best way to go about things.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

PDB · Postby **PDB** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:54 am

These have come up for sale, 440cc injectors from a supra

But my thinking is now I'm going low boost higher Comp will the stock 4agze 395cc injectors be up to the job ? Would be handy as I already have these, will just send them off to be cleaned and tested.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Postby **yoshimitsuspeed** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:37 pm

16v is top feed. Those are side feed. They would work with 20 valves but not 16v.

3SGTE had 440 top feeds that are compatible. GZE injectors are 365cc.

PDB · Postby **PDB** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:33 pm

Ah ok, so at a guess the 365cc will or won't be up to the job ?

I may have a set of injectors from a celica, a 2.0ltr, over here it's called a GT but looks like this

Possibly a 3sfe ?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk