Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

[jondee86]

Single wire that comes from the ECU to sensors, no butt connectors?

Typically an aftermarket ECU will be supplied with a harness having a length of around
2 meters with the ECU plugs on one end and nothing on the other end of the wires. The
wires will be colour coded and identified on the manufacturers wiring diagram. During
installation, if the wires in the harness are long enough, they will be terminated with a
plug that matches the connected sensor/injector/electrical component. Thus only one
crimped or soldered join will be required in each wire.

If the wires in the harness are not long enough to reach the sensor etc., they can be
extended with suitable automotive (high strand count) wire, crimped or soldered to the
ECU harness and the join shrink wrapped. Shielded cable should only be extended with
similar shielded cable, and the shielding must also be made continuous thru the join.

Multiple joins in wiring, butt connectors, tap-ons, strip connectors, twisted and taped
joins are potential problems, and are considered poor form by wiring professionals. Not
saying that I haven't used some of these quick-n-easy connections myself, but only on
non-essential stuff like audio and accessory gauges. For anything connected tothe ECU
you should use best practice... always !!!

Cheers... jondee86

[jondee86]

I'm also thinking I need to get a new ECU so that tuners around here will work on the tune.

Yes, it is an old ECU and tuners used to working with more modern units with their
nice easy to use interface and features, will try and dodge the old versions if they can.
But from what you have said, the E6X is still capable of running your car and does not
exhibit any faults affecting reliability.

An electronic ISCV would be nice, and providing you have a tapping into each ITB after
the throttle plate, easy enough to implement. I'm not sure that the inspection of your
ITB's was all that thorough. I'm pretty sure you would have noticed if the throttles were
not closing fully. One way to check for leakage is to disconnect all the linkages and back
off all the throttle stops so that the throttles can close using their return springs alone.
In theory, the engine should not get enough air to start or idle if all the throttles are
fully closed and your ISCV syatem is blocked off.

If the engine won't idle, then it becomes a matter of adjusting the stops until it will,
and reconnecting the linkages.

Anyways, I say persevere with the Haltech and self-tune until you have all the other
mechanical and electrical issues sorted, and then look at upgrading the ECU.

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Ah, so there's where I went wrong, I'm using butt connectors to join up wiring between the ignition coil connector and the oem wire harness. I can make that better.

---

I think at this point it might be worth considering a new ECU and harness kit. The previous one was cut a bunch and I had to add wires to make up the length. I think I could make my own, but seems like some work to make my own harness and not a lot of folks wants to tune this ECU. What do you guys think?

---

The blown 20A fuse is actually the fuel pump fuse. It seems like I used the wrong wire. The haltech wiring harness has two Orange/Gray wires marked for fuel pump, both gives +12V. One gives it constant 12V and is part of the main power relay to power the ECU and the sensors. The other is from the fuel pump relay. I think I tried to measure voltage before with the blown fuse and thus ended up using the constant +12V orange/gray.

Now the fuel pump doesn't constantly run when I turn the ign switch to on. It primes it for a few seconds and then turns off.

[aceforever]

Yes, it is an old ECU and tuners used to working with more modern units with their
nice easy to use interface and features, will try and dodge the old versions if they can.
But from what you have said, the E6X is still capable of running your car and does not
exhibit any faults affecting reliability.

I think the ECU does the job, but it's hard to get help tuning it. It's frustrating

An electronic ISCV would be nice, and providing you have a tapping into each ITB after
the throttle plate, easy enough to implement.

They recommended a Bosch unit. Do you know of any that have Blacktop-like ISCV? one inlet one outlet? Modern ISCV is made to go into the intake manifold.

I'm not sure that the inspection of your
ITB's was all that thorough. I'm pretty sure you would have noticed if the throttles were
not closing fully. One way to check for leakage is to disconnect all the linkages and back
off all the throttle stops so that the throttles can close using their return springs alone.
In theory, the engine should not get enough air to start or idle if all the throttles are
fully closed and your ISCV syatem is blocked off.

I'll test this. I'm pretty sure I turned the stops all the way back, I remember I was able to reduce engine speed by pushing hard on the throttle control arms. Now that you mention it, I'm not sure if the linkages was preventing full closure. I'll take them off.

I'm pretty sure it's the ITBs that are leaking because when I blocked off the trumpets, the engine stalled.

Anyways, I say persevere with the Haltech and self-tune until you have all the other
mechanical and electrical issues sorted, and then look at upgrading the ECU.

Mechanically, the suspension (tension rod) and the inner tie rods.
Electrically, it would be nice to be able to get the home trigger signal to work properly so I can run sequential injectors. I was thinking that might help the "on gas pedal press, it leans out" problem?

[jondee86]

Yeah, it would be nice if you could get a new harness from Haltech, but I guess that
they no longer support the E6X. Extra joins are not necessarily a problem if they are
properly crimped or soldered. I had to extend the AE92 FWD engine harness when
adapting it for the RWD layout. Extended every single wire by about 600mm, so two
extra joins in every wire, and that harness is back in the car and working fine

There is a pic of the Bosch valve in this thread...
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12013#p116911

And yeah... if you are committed to building your car to a high standard, getting
a current model ECU with auto-tune and an easy to use interface is going to make
life a lot easier. Then you can start re-wiring with a nice fresh harness... now that
you have done some learning on the E6X.

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Yeah, it would be nice if you could get a new harness from Haltech, but I guess that
they no longer support the E6X. Extra joins are not necessarily a problem if they are
properly crimped or soldered. I had to extend the AE92 FWD engine harness when
adapting it for the RWD layout. Extended every single wire by about 600mm, so two
extra joins in every wire, and that harness is back in the car and working fine

I don't have any experience to say on this matter. Other than, my car is seemingly running fine. Albeit some of the crimp connections can be pulled off easily. I'm not sure what I should do in the mean time other than double checking the connectors.

There is a pic of the Bosch valve in this thread...
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12013#p116911

Thanks! this helps a lot.

And yeah... if you are committed to building your car to a high standard, getting
a current model ECU with auto-tune and an easy to use interface is going to make
life a lot easier. Then you can start re-wiring with a nice fresh harness... now that
you have done some learning on the E6X.

Definitely agree on the interface. This program is designed like things in the 90s.
I'm going to poll a few tuners in the area to see what they're comfortable with. I don't want to be in the same situation like before.

So looks like new ECU and harness is on the ever growing list. I'm going to prioritize the suspension/steering work first.

---

In a different topic, I've been trying to find a smallport dizzy wih 24+4 gears and grind off 3 of the 4 tooth gear for home just to test if the haltech would play nicer with that one. It's pretty hard to find such a thing here in the states because most them are using the VAST system (4+1). I know GZE has a 24 + 1(weird sloping one) CAS. Trying to find one of those is hard too. Maybe I'll have better luck shipping a 24+4 from other parts of the world?

When I was chatting with the folks at the shop, they were recommending against Alpha-N for street cars. Saying that it's not great for idle and partial throttle and they had luck with VE + TPS enrichment. I'm pretty sure my haltech doesn't have such a feature. But sticking with MAP is currently untunable because of premature atmospheric readings.

[aceforever]

Looks good. I always liked their design: separate bracket at the lca with a pivot point for the tension rod where it connects to said bracket.

The shop probably wants to re-pin a new harness with no butt connectors or soldered tap ins, basically like oem which is the most reliable way. The shop is probably looking at it from a liability standpoint.

Almost forgot to reply to you. It makes sense from a professional background. You want things to be the best they can be. I don't have any complaints about that ideal. I'll just have to up my game

EDIT: Also wondering now what's the benefit of having that pivot point?

[aceforever]

Received the MOOG tie rods today.




Seems like one is more greased up than the other? They're both a bit stiff to move around with my hands. I'm guessing that's common?

[Deuce Cam]

^That's normal. When I got new ones I couldn't even move them by hand until I threaded the outer tie rod on for more leverage.

Also wondering now what's the benefit of having that pivot point?

I'm not sure to be honest, but I'm guessing it might keep the geometry more consistent at the far ends of the caster adjustment range, and probably is more workable with adjustable lca's that have been extended. Overall though it just seems like a better design imo.

[jondee86]

... thinking that might help the "on gas pedal press, it leans out" problem?

To overcome any lean out during sudden throttle movement, the Haltech system
uses a throttle accelerator pump function. This function delivers extra fuel during
sudden throttle movements.

ITB's typically nedd a LOT of extra fuel when the throttles open, especially below
around 2000rpm. Here is the graph of the settings I finished up with when I was
running ITB's...



You can see where the extra fuel was added. In the case of the ECU I was using,
there was a gain control for the throttle pump. The faster you opened the throttle
the bigger the squirt of fuel. Opening the throttle slowly would not generate any
extra fuel, but stomp on it and you would get the maximum squirt set by the graph.

I am uncertain just how much capability the E6X has in the throttle pump setup
page. There is a throttle pump deadband setting on the fuel setup page, and
perhaps this is some kind of gain control ?? But if you can get some more fuel into
the engine on "gas pedal press" it will help the lean out issue.

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Thanks Deuce Cam for verifying the inner tie rod stiffness!

@jondee86:



Here are my current settings. What I noticed is that the initial throttle press, you can feel like the engine is fuel starved. But if you jab the throttle, things work out fine. I'm starting to think it could be due to the "Throttle Pump dead band" filtering out the light throttle presses.

[jondee86]

I'm starting to think it could be due to the "Throttle Pump dead band" filtering
out the light throttle presses.

That ^^^^ appears to be the function of the "Throttle Pump Dead Band". It de-sensitizes
the throttle pump so that it does not activate with small throttle movements. You could
try setting it to a value of one and see if that makes any difference. The downside is that
if you have any looseness in the throttle linkage, spindle movement transfered to the TPS
by road or engine vibrations, can cause unwanted throttle pump activity.

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Today I tried adjusting the throttle pump dead band to 1. It seems to behave oddly when adjusted to that. The engine went too rich certain times and ended up sputtering out.

I think this is because any minute 1% change in throttle position sensor, it added extra oil, which then caused it to shake a bit, which caused the TPS to go to 4%, which then caused the ECU to inject more fuel. I set it back to 2% deadband and it stayed running smoothly.

I proceeded to adjust the throttle pump a bit more, and it seems a little better. (IE, no lean out) However it does go rich(~11AFR) a split second after. I tried adjusting the decay a bit more, but it doesn't seem to help. I'm thinking this might be because I have multi-point injection, and it was injecting at all cylinders? Not quite sure.

EDIT: I noticed that the tachometer is actually about 200rpm higher than what the ECU indicates. I assume this is because the tacho is old. But that does bring down the idle speed to a more reasonable number. IE, it indicated ~1400rpm, ECU says ~1200rpm.

[jondee86]

Here is a small segment from a much longer log file I made a couple of years ago.



At the center you can see where I blipped the throttle for a down shift, and the
throttle movement was sharp enough to invoke the throttle pump. You can see
how quickly things happened... despite the extra fuel, the AFR briefly went lean,
and then just as quickly went rich before bouncing back. I think with ITB's this
is just the way it has to be. The time delay between the squirt of extra fuel
leaving the injectors and the combustion gases reaching the WBO2 sensor causes
the feedback loop to overshoot and undeshoot.

Blipping the throttle requires very quick reaction by the ECU... it is much happier
dealing with more gradual changes where the feedback loop can make corrections
to keep the AFR on target. In the top trace you can also see just how sensitive the
MAP reading is to small changes in TPS. Basically, I think that we have to tolerate
short-lived flucuations in AFR. They have no real affect on the overall operation
of the engine, and although they can be logged, it is nearly impossible to feel them.

Interestingly enough, I would imagine that fly-by-wire engines can probably deal
with the fluctuations. The ECU knows in advance what the throttle movement
is going to be, and by intervening between the movement of the throttle pedal
and the throttle plate, it can smooth out the transition. Where's the fun in that ??

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Thanks for that tidbit. I'm going to leave that as is for now then. Seems like I got it working decently.

I noticed that at 20% TPS your MAP readings were pretty much atmospheric! Interesting

Planning to work on the coolant flush and cleaning up the radiator first then work on the suspension components. Wish me luck!

[jondee86]

I noticed that at 20% TPS your MAP readings were pretty much atmospheric! Interesting

Which is a good example of why MAP load sensing didn't work for me.

Planning to work on the coolant flush and cleaning up the radiator first then work
on the suspension components.

Wise move. If the car drives when you want it to drive, better to get the
fundamentals sorted before looking for more power/speed. So yeah... good
luck with getting that front suspension straightened and tightened up

Cheers... jondee86

[shagymc]

Finally caught up reading the additions to your thread and back to your wiring issue: Why don't you get a good soldering iron and learn to solder? The work is more involved but You won't have any more complaints about wiring being sub par and it'll make the compartment much cleaner looking. If you want I can recommend a great setup and a little youtube video on how to solder. The skill is priceless and will save you 1200-whatever the highest price ecus are. Connections are easily checked by measuring resistance from both where it terminated at the sensor and/or plug to the ecu plug and verifying less than 1 ohm. I guarantee after a few practice solder joints, you'll be good to go!

[aceforever]

Thanks jondee86, planning to take it nice and slow and make sure the car is well maintained first! MAP doesn't work for me either, however I'm not sure if TPS is the best option if the folks at the shop said MAP + TPS controlled fuel enrichment is better. So far I've heard

MAP < TPS < MAP + TPS enriched in terms of ITB driveability.

@shagymc
Hahaha, thanks for keeping up with my process!

Regarding the wiring, I'm not sure if they actually measured all the wires for resistance. I think they just don't like butt connections because I might have not crimped all of them as tight. I heard that in the engine bay, it's not recommended to use soldering? Something about the solder could melt and the wires could separate?

I'm up for learning more about soldering! I learned a little bit about them when my clutch-ignition interlock switch wires separated. One of my friends lent me a cheapo iron and showed me how. I still ended up burning myself haha

The ECU thing is more about being able to tune the engine better. My old ECU does the job but lack some nice to have features.

[jondee86]

I'm not sure if TPS is the best option if the folks at the shop said MAP + TPS
controlled fuel enrichment is better.

We have discussed before, the strengths and weaknesses of the different load types.
MAP works best with single throttle manifolds that have decent idle vacuum. TPS works
best with ITB's, big cams and poor idle vacuum. However, some of the more recent ECU
designs aim to please by offering the ability to "blend" MAP and TPS load tables.

The claim is that by using MAP for low throttle openings and changing to TPS for high
throttle openings, you can have the best of both worlds. I doubt that the added complexity
of a "blended" tune offers any real advantage to the self-tuner. For some time now, many
ECU's have included the option of VE tuning, and the algorithm for VE tuning will factor in
a component for the MAP value on a TPS tune. I used a TPS-only VE tune... worked fine

The ECU market is technology driven and new features are selling points. The makers
are aways looking for something different to incorporate so that they can one-up the
opposition... that is the world we live in. But change does not equal improvement, and
just because we can do something, does not mean that we should. When you get to
the stage that you are ready to buy a new ECU, you can have fun reading the catalogs.

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Ah, my mistake. Sorry it's been hard to concentrate recently, apologies for missing that earlier.

For some time now, many ECU's have included the option of VE tuning

The E6X doesn't have any VE tables, but pure inj timing tables. So I doubt it will account for that. It does however has an internal barometer that helps adjust for altitude. Hopefully, in the future, the next ECU I get will support better features.

Looking at the E6X manual, the last time it was updated was Feb 2004. So it was probably designed a few years before that. Meaning my ECU 12+ years old!

Will be checking out what I can tackle next mechanically tomorrow. Pretty excited to work on the car again!

The shop said there were many pebbles in the radiator. I'm pretty sure it's remnants of the old radiator cap rubber. Going to flush it before it clogs up the radiator.

Suspension parts after that.

And I'll take a look at the leaky brake master cylinder if I have any energy.

Tomorrow is a non-rain day! Better work on it before the rain comes in again on Sunday.

[jondee86]

Looking at the E6X manual, the last time it was updated was Feb 2004. So it was probably
designed a few years before that. Meaning my ECU 12+ years old!

[Parable]
When I had Win95 I liked it and it did all I needed. Then because some programs
would not function on 95 I was obliged to upgrade to XP. I liked that too and it also
did all I needed. After support ended for XP and some programs no longer worked
correctly, I was forced to upgrade to Win7.

Now I have a bloated operating system that is full of unnecessary and unwanted
features. It is resource hungry, and even the basic Word and XL programs have been
"improved" to the point that it can be near impossible to find the simple functions
that I use the most.

I am dreading the day when I am forced to upgrade to Win10
[/Parable]

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Radiator cleaning time! (again)



I ran the engine letting the it get to a temperature where the thermostat opens up.
Let it circulate for a bit.
Drained everything.
Unfasten radiator hoses.
Take radiator out
Use garden hose to rinse out the sediment and old radiator cap rubber.
Put the radiator back in
Connect everything back up
Repeated 2 more times.

Here's a picture after one or two flushes, the coolant is much more clear. The first couple times had a bunch of sediment in it.


Now it should be pretty clean!

[aceforever]

I am dreading the day when I am forced to upgrade to Win10

Hahahaha. Yeah I've heard bad things about it. Not going to update until they force me. Or Win11 comes out.

[shagymc]

my solder from lowes has a melting point close to 500F, with heat shrink and/or electric tape, it would be extremely difficult for temps in the bay to get that high. I can not imagine a scenario where the solder would melt. Just my 2 cents! Flush looks like it went well!

[aceforever]

my solder from lowes has a melting point close to 500F, with heat shrink and/or electric tape, it would be extremely difficult for temps in the bay to get that high. I can not imagine a scenario where the solder would melt. Just my 2 cents! Flush looks like it went well!

Cool. I'm definitely interested. Would probably hold up better than some of the butt connections I made anyways. What's the setup like?

[aceforever]

My passenger side rear caliper is still dragging a bit. Going forward it doesn't squeal, however going in reverse squeals quite a bit. I've checked the shim pieces for the brake pads. Is there anything else I should check?

I also noticed it is a bit harder to push the car around on foot than before I replaced the rear calipers. I'm thinking that the shop is correct in the diagnosis of the calipers being semi-seized and I'm going to have to warranty them.

[aceforever]

Replaced driver side tension rod.



It's funny when you jack up one side, the rear comes up too. Don't worry, I lifted both sides and put jack stands on.


Comparing the bent vs new


So I used my super not-accurate iphone app to check both camber.
Before it was -4.7 on both sides, (or what my iphone displayed as -5 on both sides)
Now it's -7 on the side I haven't touched, and -5 on the side I replaced the tension rod with. Maybe I didn't measure it properly?

It does make a bit of sense. The -7 side is adjusted all the way negative, and the -5 side is adjusted all the way positive.


Is there any other things I need to do to make it more positive camber?

I noticed that there's actually 6 holes in the NCRCA, they look exactly like this BattleVersion part.


I guess I could use the middle hole, but that would only be a bit better right? Perhaps -2 or -3 degrees?

I know jondee86 mentioned I could just not use the NCRCA, but I've been getting mixed information. That it would be better to use normal RCAs if dropping an inch lower than stock.

[shagymc]

I use this soldering gun:
http://www.lowes.com/pd_97541-273-8200P ... 1368011056

You can also get electrical solder and heat shrink from there as well. Extra tips can be found at your local radioshack and should be switched when the tip degrades and doesn't perform as expected.

Scotch super 33+ electrical tape is always my go to in those instances where heat shrink isn't or can't be used, and then finally, finish everything off with wire loom and no one will question your connections again. If you want, like I said before, I can make a quick video on how I solder and what to check once you're complete!

[jondee86]

This might be worth a read...
http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=9628&page=1

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

This might be worth a read...
http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=9628&page=1

Cheers... jondee86

I've done that, it only retracts it. When I drive around again and use the brakes, it stays partially engaged the next morning. Did I miss something?