Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:42 pm

Ahhh thanks! I'll get an ST set then! :)

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:10 pm

Took it to a couple car meets over the past few weekends. Been getting pretty positive responses on the car.

Image

Image

Ordered a MOMO steering wheel to replace the current steering wheel since I feel like it's time to work on driving feel. Still debating about what seats to get.

EDIT:

Finally got a proper digital caliper to measure the diameters

ITB diameter is 47.36mm
Image

Velocity Stack diameter is 48.56mm
Image

TechnoToyTuning's website says the ST bore is 47mm and BT is 49mm. The original HKS stacks are pretty close to BT stacks that I don't really know which one to get.

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:43 pm

I've been trying to fix two main things on the suspension. The camber and height differences at each corner.

Got the car aligned at Firestone months back. The technician there wasn't too happy and I don't think he paid too much attention.

Image

The notes say that my camber is at the limits and I can't adjust it any more positive. It's currently at -4.5 and I'd like to get it to a more reasonable -2 or so.

Front Right: (pardon my wiring, I'm going to fix that in the coming months)
Image

Front Left:
Image

As you can see the technician adjusted the FL to max positive to get the -4.5 camber.

I tried to see if there's anything odd about the suspension components underneath but I'm not sure where to start investigating. I do see that I have NCRCAs on both side.

Front Right:
Image

Front Left:
Image

Looking at the tires you can see that the top of the tires on the FR is inwards more than the FL, even though they have the same camber. The FL side also sits a bit taller.

FR:
Image

FL:
Image

In the rear of the car has similar issue. Other than being too low for my liking, the left side sits a bit taller than the other. On bumpier highways, I get rub on the rear right.

I'm suspecting it could be some thing like the spindle or maybe some other piece below that's causing the extra camber in the front. I have no idea what's going on in the rear. Should I take my car to another alignment shop or would I be wasting my time and money?

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:49 pm

Hey... I thought you must have gone South for the winter :)

For anything less than a dedicated race car, adjustable camber tops
AND negative camber roll cemter adjusters are overkill. I'd suggest
that you get the NRCA's out of there. You could either replace them
with standard RCA's or just leave them out if you plan on raising the
car. I assume that you have threaded sleeves with adjustable collars
sitting on top of the springs perches, so height adjustment is possible.

Image

The, if you study this pic for a while you will see that adjustable camber
tops usually have three or four threaded holes in each slot, but only two
are in use at any one time. To get full adjustment in either direction,
the capscrews have to be shuffled from end to end to allow the strut top
to move all the way to the end of its travel. On one side you currently
have full negative and on the other a bit short of minimum negative
because the adjustment came up short.

So if you get rid the NRCA's and center the adjustment on both sides,
you can find a nice level place to stop and do some measuring of camber
with a builders level or even a string with a weight on the end and a
tape measure. See how close to being the same they are on either side
and check how much you need to adjust if they are not the same. Make
sure your ride height is the same both sides before measuring.

Cheers... jondee86
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persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
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Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby YoShImUrA » Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:06 am

Jondee, you probably already assumed this, but ride height should be measured with a driver of a similar weight (or equivalent ballast) sitting on the car, shouldn't it?

I've never been a fan of NRCAs because of what I've read about them in the past, but some swear by them. Although for now I would be with jondee and agree to get RCAs.

I wonder about those differences on either side. As much as it can have different threaded holes on the camber plates, I wonder if there's something else there, like an uneven pair of LCAs, or maybe previous damage/bending to the crossmember, LCAs or anything of the like...?

Either way, before anything, about the alignment, AFAIK, the steps to go through are:

1. Cornerweight the car with the driver in it (or some similarly weighed heavy sacks on the driver's seat and floor), with at least 1/2, or 3/4 of a tank, depending on how you usually drive it. Also, don't forget to remove all the tools, spare, and other things you usually don't use for the track.

2. Set the ride height (once the cornerweighting is done, you can move either front or rear axle up or down -as long as the left and right sides are changed the same amount- and it won't affect cornerweighting). Once heights are set, you can center the Panhard rod.

3. Set the proper alignment: caster, camber and toe in this order.

Then, you should have a pretty good idea if all is as it should.


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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:43 pm

jondee86 wrote:Hey... I thought you must have gone South for the winter :)


Haha. Aw, don't worry I'm still around! I've been mostly busy at work and only doing minor things on the car. But I took a couple weeks off for the holidays, which means more car work (I hope!).

I was still tracking down a set of velocity stacks that would work with my ITBs. Grant from Battle Garage was pretty helpful and I'm thinking about a SQ engineering velocity stack for ST. And drill my own holes in the stacks to match the bolt offset of the throttle body.

I also bought and installed a new MOMO steering wheel.
Image

Was also focusing some energy on adjusting the ECU to run better in the winter. It starts up with about two "fuel primes" (crank once, stop, crank again). So I need to tweak the injector prime ms-temp map. The engine is also running at 10.8AFR during cold coolant, found the Fuel-Coolant temp map and have been adjusting it.

My engine oil smelled like gasoline probably because of this reason. Stocked up on oil filters and Castrol GTX 10w30. And changed engine oil yesterday.
ImageImage

----

Back to the suspension issues.

jondee86 wrote:For anything less than a dedicated race car, adjustable camber tops
AND negative camber roll cemter adjusters are overkill. I'd suggest
that you get the NRCA's out of there. You could either replace them
with standard RCA's or just leave them out if you plan on raising the
car. I assume that you have threaded sleeves with adjustable collars
sitting on top of the springs perches, so height adjustment is possible.


I'd like to keep the fronts at the same height as now or 1cm taller. Would I need RCA's for that? I do agree that I should get rid of NCRCAs though. I'd probably never need that much camber.

For the rear, I'd like to raise it a lot more, maybe 2-4cm taller. The problem is the shocks in the rear doesn't have enough travel to give me that extra height. I've jacked up by the diff and put the car on jack stands. Then lowered the diff down. There's no extra play on the springs.

If you look at my front vs rear ride height, you'll see a major difference. It makes the car look odd and perhaps bad handling?
Image

jondee86 wrote:The, if you study this pic for a while you will see that adjustable camber
tops usually have three or four threaded holes in each slot, but only two
are in use at any one time. To get full adjustment in either direction,
the capscrews have to be shuffled from end to end to allow the strut top
to move all the way to the end of its travel. On one side you currently
have full negative and on the other a bit short of minimum negative
because the adjustment came up short.

So if you get rid the NRCA's and center the adjustment on both sides,
you can find a nice level place to stop and do some measuring of camber
with a builders level or even a string with a weight on the end and a
tape measure. See how close to being the same they are on either side
and check how much you need to adjust if they are not the same. Make
sure your ride height is the same both sides before measuring.


I see what you mean by the cap screw holes. Just by looking at my cap screws in relation to the shock adjuster, they aren't mismatched. If you look at the shock adjusters on both side. FL is in the center of the hole of the strut tower. Whereas FR is on the very inside. So I'm thinking the strut angle are different on both sides. I heard this is bad for driving on the limit?

I'm thinking something might be damaged, like Yoshimura suggests. Perhaps LCA? Perhaps something else? I have no idea how to start investigating. Maybe I'll take a tape measurer and start measuring things.

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:45 pm

Some good points made by YoShImUrA and when we get a bit further down
the line with figuring out what you have, we will come back to them. But
first I think it is better to see if your suspension only needs adjusting, or
if there is something bent on the car.

The test sheet results show that the operator put more negative camber
into the RF because he couldn't take any more negative out of the FL. This
made me think that the screws might be in the wrong holes, as the plate
does not look like it has made it to the end of its adjustment. Regardless,
if the camber is set at approx -4.5deg on both sides, and the tops of the
shocks are in substantially different places, something is not quite right.

To figure out what might be wrong you will need to do some measuring :)

1. To check if you have a bent spindle, measure between the strut casing
and the inside of the tire at the top of the wheel.

2. RCA's do not affect the ride height, and at the height you have now you
do not need RCA's... so take them out. You will then have 2 - 2.5deg less
negative camber and be in a more reasonable range.

3. Springs set the ride height at the back, so providing the shock is at
least partly into its travel when the car is on the ground, it will not be the
shock that is limiting the ride height. To raise the car you will need springs
with a higher ride height, and to maintain reasonable droop travel you
will most likely need longer shocks.

BTW nice steering wheel... I have one the same ;)

Cheers... jondee86
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persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:59 am

jondee86 wrote:Regardless,
if the camber is set at approx -4.5deg on both sides, and the tops of the
shocks are in substantially different places, something is not quite right.


That's what I've been thinking. I'll have to go start measure things down there. Man I wish I had a lift :)

I think I'll leave the NCRCA in for the time being. I'm going to tackle this problem one thing at the time. I doubt removing the NCRCA will solve this issue if it's something else that's causing the differing camber.

For the rear setup, I'm thinking about getting an over-axle spring setup. I've heard many people recommending against coilovers.

And thanks! It's a popular steering wheel huh? Yoshimura has one too!

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby YoShImUrA » Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:38 pm

Isn't the Mod. 78 the best wheel of all time? Mine's a 330mm one and swap it with the quick release from my AE86 to my AW11. Love it!

Image

Hope you can find out soon what's out of spec.


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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby Deuce Cam » Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:11 pm

+3 for the steering wheel! I have a similar momo unit. The hand grip location and feel is soooo nice.

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:30 pm

aceforever wrote:I doubt removing the NCRCA will solve this issue!.

Correct. All it will do is get your camber back to a more sensible number
without your needing to realign anything. To determine the reason for the
disparity in camber plates settings between left and right you will need to
check any phyiscal detail that could have a bearing on camber. For example...
- bent spindle
- bent strut casing
- bent spear on shock insert
- assembly differences in camber plates
- loose wheel bearings
- worn LCA bushings
- chassis rail accident damaged

If we assume a distance of 600mm from camber plate to spindle, one degree
of camber equals 10.47mm of movement at the camber plate. That will give
you an idea of how much adjustment is available at the top of the strut, and
how small a bend at spindle level it takes to give you a couple of degrees
difference at the camber plate. On an old car that has probably taken a few
hits in its lifetime, some difference from side to side could be expected. So
I would say if you can get the difference down to one degree on the camber
plate... be happy with that and move on to other improvements :)

Here is quite a good article on the good and bad of camber...
http://www.santafegarage.com/precision- ... explained/

Cheers... jondee86
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persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:01 pm

Thanks for the check list I'll be going through each part to see the oddity.

Also great article! It does a pretty good job at explaining SAI. SAI confused me a bit at first.

A bit off-topic but I've been busy entertaining family from out of town instead of working on the car. Found some nice twisty roads that I'd love to take the 86 on once everything is sorted :)

Image

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby totta crolla » Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:11 am

In addition to Jondees comprehensive list above the engine cross member can also have an effect on camber.
There is a small amount of adjustment on the cross member but it is a 'double whammy' adding to one side and subtracting from the other.

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:27 am

totta crolla wrote:In addition to Jondees comprehensive list above the engine cross member can also have an effect on camber.
There is a small amount of adjustment on the cross member but it is a 'double whammy' adding to one side and subtracting from the other.


Ah that's a good point. I'll make sure to keep that in mind when measuring.

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby strmrdr23 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:55 pm

aceforever wrote:A bit off-topic but I've been busy entertaining family from out of town instead of working on the car. Found some nice twisty roads that I'd love to take the 86 on once everything is sorted :)


where might these twisty roads be, good sir? i'm also in seattle area...

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:49 am

Santa came early this year. I've received my Seibon CF OEM style hood.

Image

Weave looks pretty nice :)
Image

Having some issues with closing the hood because of latch holes near the hinges were not cut out on the CF hood.

OEM vs Seibon CF
Image Image

Looks like the mold for the seibon hood actually had where the holes might be. Should be simple to drill that off. Contacting Seibon / distributor for verification.

Fitment is pretty good otherwise, panel gaps look pretty stock.

My joints have been acting up, but I really need to make progress on the camber differences. Planning to measure things tomorrow.

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Sun Dec 27, 2015 3:52 pm

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmm................... carbon hood 8-)

Finished putting my engine back together after the car was pillaged...

Image

No more ITB's and no more big cams. Just a stock smallport running
on the AE92 factory ECU. Been a while since I drove it stock and I have
to say it is nice to be able to drive the car without having to rev it out.
Easily pulls a gear higher than a bigport everywhere, so I'm happy to be
driving again while collecting parts for the next "upgrade" :mrgreen:

Cheers... jondee86
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persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Sun Dec 27, 2015 3:55 pm

Wait wait. What!?!? Your car got pillaged? When was this?!? I'm so sorry man :(

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby YoShImUrA » Sun Dec 27, 2015 3:59 pm

Glad it's running again! That looks like a very "stock" and clean small port. I can barely tell the inverted intake mani.

I have my MR2's 7rib bigport bone stock and runs like a champ under 6k, where I use it mostly, as it's my daily. Like it for this use much better than my mildly tuned 3rib bigport on my 86, which needs to be revved over 5k to make any power


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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Sun Dec 27, 2015 4:49 pm

aceforever wrote:Your car got pillaged? When was this?!?

Three or four months back... lost all my stereo gear... custom sub
box, speakers and amps... steering wheel, gear knob and a bunch of
other stuff from my garage. But the thing that pissed me off was that
the cunze cut the harness to my aftermarket ECU and ripped it out
still bolted into the glovebox.

The ECU is out of production so I would have had to replace it with a
later model and re-do the harness. Decided not to do that just now
since I still had all the stock smallport gear tucked away. So I put the
stock intake and ECU back on and got it running with the 272 cams
inside. But while it would run pretty good on the open road, getting
stuck in traffic was no fun. Now I have the stock cams installed and
it drives and idles awesome :)

Stuff happens and derails your plans sometimes... no sense in getting
bitter and twisted about it. I had the ITB experience, and while it was
a lot of fun, I only did that to prove a point and learn about some new
things. In my book torque beats power just as surely as a full house
beats a straight :) So now I will be going in a different direction.

Cheers... jondee86
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persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Sun Dec 27, 2015 4:55 pm

YoShImUrA wrote:I can barely tell the inverted intake mani.

I did the conversion a little differently to most people. After cutting the
front off the smallport manifold, I cut the front off a spare AE82 bigport
manifold on an angle. That way when it was welded on I could match the
angle of the RWD manifold and use the stock intake duct as you can see.

It's all in the detail :)

EDIT: An eagle eye might spot that I couldn't reinstate the cold start
injector, as I drilled and tapped the fuel rail to plug the injector feed
when using the ITB's. No cold start injector required with programmable
engine management, and it starts OK without it on the stock ECU.

Cheers... jondee86
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persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby YoShImUrA » Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:03 pm

Amazing. Speaking about using the intake duct and airbox, for my 20v I was looking into this (pipercross hasn't gotten back to me with details of the tallest stacks it would fit):

Image


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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:09 pm

jondee86 wrote:
aceforever wrote:Your car got pillaged? When was this?!?

Three or four months back... lost all my stereo gear... custom sub
box, speakers and amps... steering wheel, gear knob and a bunch of
other stuff from my garage. But the thing that pissed me off was that
the cunze cut the harness to my aftermarket ECU and ripped it out
still bolted into the glovebox.

The ECU is out of production so I would have had to replace it with a
later model and re-do the harness. Decided not to do that just now
since I still had all the stock smallport gear tucked away. So I put the
stock intake and ECU back on and got it running with the 272 cams
inside. But while it would run pretty good on the open road, getting
stuck in traffic was no fun. Now I have the stock cams installed and
it drives and idles awesome :)

Stuff happens and derails your plans sometimes... no sense in getting
bitter and twisted about it. I had the ITB experience, and while it was
a lot of fun, I only did that to prove a point and learn about some new
things. In my book torque beats power just as surely as a full house
beats a straight :) So now I will be going in a different direction.


I'm sorry to hear that man. :( Why the hell would they cut the harness. Ugh. I didn't know people in NZ did stuff like this :(

I'm scared of people messing with my car now. I guess I should be extra careful.

It's interesting you bring up torque. When I drive my car I do miss the torque of my E90 sometimes. I normally have to downshift on even the slightest hill. I bet once I get the IGN map tuned by a professional it would produce somewhat more torque than the safe map we put on.

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:17 pm

Got a used Corbeau seat at a great price. It's a bit heavy, with the support of the seat made out of steel. These will do for now until I find some better ones.

Image
ImageImage

I need a little help with choosing a bracket setup. The seat came with a bottom mount slide rail from Corbeau. The guy had a S13 seat bracket so it wouldn't have worked with my car. I'm looking at various different kits. I think I'd like mounting solution that would allow for the seat to be reclined a little.

T3 has a direct bolt on version ($220). Planted has one too ($140 bracket, $80 side mounts). I don't think I can reuse the slide rail unless I can widen the handle for the unlock mechanism somehow.
There's also buddy club. But I've read mixed reviews on the slider being loose and squeaks.

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:50 pm

Regulations here say you can't use fixed back seats in a two-door car
unless the rear seats have been stripped out. Otherwise they have to be
the kind that fold forward. So I have a pair of these in the shed...

Image

Apparently the regulations also say that I can bolt these in so long as
I use the Toyota factory rails and mounting points. Probably be getting
onto this in the next couple of days as I have a spare set of rails and
the bolt locations in the seats look like they should work with the rails.

I'll be looking into getting the original factory seats rebuilt as the foam
has started to collapse, but the covering looks like it could be cleaned
and re-used. I'd like to keep the OEM look if I can :)

Cheers... jondee86
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persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:03 pm

aceforever wrote:It's interesting you bring up torque. When I drive my car I do miss the torque
of my E90 sometimes. I normally have to downshift on even the slightest hill.
I bet once I get the IGN map tuned by a professional it would produce somewhat
more torque than the safe map we put on.

Best torque is found close to the point at which the engine will start to knock.
So in essence, the tuner will advance the ignition timing at a range of load points
until he detects the onset of knock, and will then back the timing off a couple of
degrees and call it good. This is a balancing act that can only be performed with
a dyno, knock detection equipment and a wideband.

So yes, when the tune is optimised for best torque you should feel a difference :)

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:09 pm

My OEM seats could use some loving. It needs a lot of love actually. I'll keep it around incase I want to go back to stock :)

Those are pretty nice looking Recaros! How would you get your factory rails working with the recaro's without too much trouble?

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:11 pm

jondee86 wrote:So yes, when the tune is optimised for best torque you should feel a difference :)


So excited :D I'm going to call up the carb place tomorrow to see if I can get that high idle sorted out first.

Man I really can't find a good time to check out the suspension with the small garage. I can't even back the car out to have more room as there is a huge rain storm :(

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:50 pm

I liked those seats because they are the same basic style as the factory
seats, and I know that they are narrow enough to fit in an AE86.
Before I bought them I did some checking against this drawing...

Image

... and the bolt spacings seemed to match up pretty well with the spacings
on some seats I took out of my car and sold. Got to re-visit that before
I start taking seats out, but should be OK. I just have to make sure that
the seats are positioned right so that they can slide far enough backwards.

I hate it when my helmet touches the roof :-P

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:24 pm

Yeah, I agree they look like they'd fit an AE86 better. I only got mine because they were a really good deal for FIA certified seats.

Weight of my seats: 26lb. Factory = 45lb. Should be a good 19lb weight reduction there for me even though FRP/Carbon seats are around 15-17lbs total, will have to decide in the future if I want to switch to fancier seats.
I'm going to stick with these for now and learn what's good/bad about bucket seats instead of dropping hundreds without much experience.

Seems like the OEM seat bracket bolt offsets are about 16.5" which is about 420mm.
Image

Coincidentally enough, the width of the Corbeau seats of where the side mount bolts are is ~16.5" as well! (it's beneath the fabric, but I can definitely feel the cap screws. There are four, two on each side)
Image

Corbeau bottom mount slide rails are ~11.5" or ~290mm. I probably will not be able to use these unless I customize them.
Image

I've looked up recaro's (15.8 or 16.5") and brides (~17.5") side mount offset seems like all of them are within 2" of each other. Since these brackets and side mount kits are expensive I'm going to find a solution that will work for any other seats in the future.