Small port 4age with big port cams - Timing & Injector questions

quietskaterguy
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Small port 4age with big port cams - Timing & Injector questions

Postby quietskaterguy » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:11 pm

Hey Guys,

So I just finished doing a full rebuild on my small port 4age w/ big port cams. (I remember reading years ago about this, and how it gave a mild performance upgrade)

Currently the engine is running on all stock big port electronics including injectors. Also, has a TRD .8mm head gasket

Engine seems to be running fine and sounds good, starts good, idles well. but the timing it at 30 degrees. Like on the little timing mark area you have the spread from +15,+10, +5, 0, -5. and I'm easily around +30 maybe even +40. If I move the distributor ahead a tooth and its idling at like 3500rpm and drop it back a tooth and it wont start at all.
Is this because I'm running big port electronics and injectors? or maybe the cams are ground with a different timing setting from big port to small port?

If I swap to the small port injectors and keep the big port harness I need to cut and loop(bypass) the wires on the resistor box that mounts near the passenger strut tower under/near the air box?

I've looked around and used the search function and maybe the info I'm looking for is lost on the old forum?

Just wanted to see if this is all normal, or if I'm dialing in my engine at a wonky setting that will cause damage down the road
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Re: Small port 4age with big port cams - Timing & Injector questions

Postby wewerica » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:00 pm

I have smallport head with bigport cams but I dont have that kind of issue :(
Idling at 10deg @ 800rpm like a charm

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Re: Small port 4age with big port cams - Timing & Injector questions

Postby jondee86 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:12 pm

Could be a vacuum leak, so to be clear...
- Are you using the factory AE86 RWD intake manifold with a bigport
to smallport adapter plate ?
- Or did you just bolt the RWD manifold to the smallport head ?
- Or have you cut-n-shut the smallport manifold ?
- Or is the engine in a FWD car ?

Otherwise. what is the idle speed when the timing is at 30 deg ? It is not unknown for
the outer ring on the OEM crankshaft pulley to move, so when you set the engine to
Top Dead Centre on cylinder #1(with a screwdriver or similar down the spark plug hole)
does the notch on the pulley line up with the zero deg mark on the scale ?

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Small port 4age with big port cams - Timing & Injector questions

Postby davew7 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:55 am

Another vote for jondee86's
[Outer ring on the OEM crankshaft pulley has moved.]
Dave W

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Re: Small port 4age with big port cams - Timing & Injector questions

Postby quietskaterguy » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:38 am

jondee86 wrote:Could be a vacuum leak, so to be clear...
- Are you using the factory AE86 RWD intake manifold with a bigport
to smallport adapter plate ?
- Or did you just bolt the RWD manifold to the smallport head ?
- Or have you cut-n-shut the smallport manifold ?
- Or is the engine in a FWD car ?

Otherwise. what is the idle speed when the timing is at 30 deg ? It is not unknown for
the outer ring on the OEM crankshaft pulley to move, so when you set the engine to
Top Dead Centre on cylinder #1(with a screwdriver or similar down the spark plug hole)
does the notch on the pulley line up with the zero deg mark on the scale ?

Cheers... jondee86


Sorry, I tried to cover all parts but missed a few things.
I'm using the T3 adapter plate so I'm still running the big port manifold.
Its in a RWD car

Idle speed starts around 2000rpm, sometimes as much as 2500rpm, but after the engine warms up its idling around 1100rpm, and sometimes as low as 700rpm

I will test the top dead center theory today if I have a minute and report back on that as well. Haven't heard of the notch moving before, I didn't know the ring its on was a separate piece.
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Re: Small port 4age with big port cams - Timing & Injector questions

Postby jondee86 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:39 pm

quietskaterguy wrote:Idle speed starts around 2000rpm, sometimes as much as 2500rpm, but after
the engine warms up its idling around 1100rpm, and sometimes as low as 700rpm

Sounds pretty much normal then :) You have the OEM thermostatic idle-up valve working.
That will give you a cold start idle of around 2200rpm, dropping to around 900rpm once the
engine is fully warmed up.

You can't check the idle rpm until the engine is fully warmed up, and then if you put your light
on the pulley the mark should be hovering around 16-17 deg. You also need to adjust the dissy
so that the engine is running at around 900rpm when you check. Note that there is an "official"
way to set the idle by shorting the diagnostic plug. Then the timing is set to 10deg. Doing it
without shorting the diagnostic plug you set to 16-17deg as above.

If you can set the idle timing so the engine idles nice when fully warm and see 16-17deg on
the scale, then you are done. But if you can only get it to idle nice at something way different,
then check to see if the outer ring (rubber mounted) of the pulley has moved.

Once you have set the timing, rev the engine with the light still on the pulley and watch the
notch on the pulley disappear to the left :D

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Small port 4age with big port cams - Timing & Injector questions

Postby jondee86 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:12 pm

quietskaterguy wrote:Just wanted to see if this is all normal, or if I'm dialing in my engine at a wonky
setting that will cause damage down the road

What you have now is basically a high compression bigport engine, so it should run
fine with bigport injectors and electronics. You need to get someone with a wideband
and a tailpipe sniffer to check your air/fuel ratios in case the engine is running lean.

The factory narrow band O2 (if fitted to your car) and factory ECU should be able to
keep the AFRs pretty good, but you may need to up the fuel pressure a fraction to
help it do its job. That means fitting an adjustable fuel pressure regulator.

If you have an injector resistor pack that means you have low resistance injectors.
The smallport usually runs high resistance injectors without a resistor pack, so you
are correct about bypassing the resistor pack if you use smallport injectors. You will
also need to change the injector clips. Another possibility would be to see if you can
locate some low resistance Denso injectors with a slightly higher capacity. Then you
have an easy "drop in" installation with no other changes required.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Small port 4age with big port cams - Timing & Injector questions

Postby quietskaterguy » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:21 am

Sounds good Jon,

I will double check all this info tonight for sure.
I'll look into the FRP but I think I'm fine here.
My plan was to swap the injector pig tails after I had the engine dialed in. I didn't want to do it before the swap and spend days trying to figure our why it wont run when its something I physically changed.
I'll look into other options for the injectors though. Any leads on what might work? Part numbers or cars they came in?

To be be honest, I haven't every done anything with injectors besides swapping in newer ones or swapping pig tails to use other ones.
do all Densos have the same plug style on them and so most/all are interchangeable?

Thanks Again Jon. this group is lucky to have you around!
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Re: Small port 4age with big port cams - Timing & Injector questions

Postby jondee86 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:38 pm

quietskaterguy wrote: Do all Densos have the same plug style on them and so most/all are interchangeable?

The same "oval" style of plugs are used on most of the older Toyota/Denso injectors,
but the hi and lo resistance plugs are coded differently. The little fins on the side of
the plug are in a different position, so you can swap lo for lo or hi for hi but not swap
hi for low without changing the clips.

The reason you need to check the AFR's is that raising the compression can increase
the possibility of detonation if you don't have the ability to tune the ignition map. One
way of staying safe is to use the highest octane pump gas available in your area. You
could dial the timing back on the dissy, but this will drop power and kind of defeats
the benefits of raising the compression.

Detonation is more likely to occur if the engine is running lean. So while not strictly
necessary when the only modification to the engine is raising the compression, running
a slightly rich mixture is a good idea for safety. You can do this by raising the fuel
pressure or by fitting a higher capacity injector. Depending on who you believe, the
factory bigport injector is either 180, 185 or 200cc/min and the factory smallport
around 235cc/min.

This messed up chart from Club4AG gives an idea of lo resistance options ...
http://club4ag.com/faq_and_tech_pages/T ... Denso.html
I'd suggest that you check the part numbers on your existing injectors and then see
if you can locate some a little larger, say an extra 20cc/min. But don't do this until
you get your AFR's checked at a tuneup garage or dyno shop
. Your ECU might already
be keeping you safe without needing more fuel.

This site will help you identify injectors once you have the part numbers...
http://www.witchhunter.com/injectordata1.php

Cheers... jondee86

PS: You might like to consider installing a wideband O2 sensor and gauge if you are
planning further engine modifications :)
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Re: Small port 4age with big port cams - Timing & Injector questions

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:07 am

There is another injector option........

Late 80s Honda Accord, and Prelude 2.0i engines uses low ohm (peak and hold) 240cc injectors. These are the go to injector I recommend with mild builds.
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: Small port 4age with big port cams - Timing & Injector questions

Postby jondee86 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:48 pm

Seeing as it is a quiet day, I thought that I would try and clarify a couple of points
arising out of the various comments that I have made above. In particular these apply
when mixing and matching components, or modifying engines.

Engine Control Unit (ECU)
Each engine when it leaves the factory has the ECU optimised to provide the best
all round performance possible with the stock components. This means that the ignition
and fuel maps are tuned to work with the stock compression ratio, intake, exhaust,
cams etc. When the engine is modified and the ECU cannot compensate for the changes
in operating conditions, the ignition and fuel maps are no longer optimised.

Planning Modifications
There is very little point in making random modifications in the hope that you will
get lucky and get a big gain from some shiney bolt-on part. To get a decent performance
gain from your investment of time and money, you need to have a PLAN. Raising
the compression is a worthwhile modification, but to gain full benefit from increased
compression you need to add other ingredients like cams, headwork, intake and exhaust
improvements. And once you go there, a programmable ECU is pretty much mandatory.

How to make more POWER
There is only one way to make more power, and that is to increase the amount of air
and fuel that the engine burns. Read that again :) (you didn't think I was going to tell you
how to modify your engine did you ??)

Raising Compression
This is one of the stepping stones on the path to more power. Raising compression with
no other modifications does not increase power by any significant amount (because it does
not increase airflow). However, it does lay the groundwork for the later addition of cams,
carbs, ITB's, headers etc.

Increasing Fuel
In the absence of any modifications that increase airflow, adding more fuel will almost
certainly cause the engine to run rich and lose power. Fitting larger injectors or a higher
capacity fuel punp without other supporting modifications is a waste of time and money.

Say... WUT ?? Up above you suggested the OP should look at going to larger injectors !!!
Correct, but you will note I emphasised the point that he should check what AFR's the
engine is running before doing anything to change fueling. The intake and compression
ratio of his engine has changed, so the fuel and ignition maps in the factory ECU are no
longer optimised, which means that the engine could be running a little leaner (or richer)
than ideal.

Just thought I would add that in case anyone was thinking that a "500hp Walbro" is going
to make their car faster :D

Cheers... jondee86

PS: Because you read all that long post I have added a pic of a performance throttlebody
that would look good in your car ;)
V
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Image
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Re: Small port 4age with big port cams - Timing & Injector questions

Postby mad_86 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:39 am

haha! lol very informative Jondee :lol:

i also have the same set up but with smallport head w/hi injectors pigtails (buy new ones)

check for vacuum leaks, a good way to check is to let the motor warmed up
then at idle take a spray bottle with water and lightly spray around the intake/adaptor plate
and also around throttle body or where air can escape

if there is a leak the idle would rise abit, you should be able to hear the revs go up = vacuum leak

no change =no leak

im in the process of having a wideband bung welded in,

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Re: Small port 4age with big port cams - Timing & Injector questions

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:34 pm

Love the throttle bodies... :shock: excuse me throttle body.... ;)

But I have a few misgivings... in particular "optimised"... back in 1984?? Optimized FOR 1984 is different, but I'm not whole-y sure your audience understands the level of "crude" we are dealing with.........
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: Small port 4age with big port cams - Timing & Injector questions

Postby jondee86 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:34 pm

All things are relative :) I guess I could have said that the factory matches the
components they build into the car when it leaves the factory. The compression
ratio, injector size, spark plugs, pollution control devices and safety features are
selected to suit the intended market. The factory ECU is tuned to give acceptable
performance under a wide range of driving conditions while ensuring that the
engine remains safe and reliable for a long time with minimal maintenance.

The car also has to meet local noise, economy and air pollution regulations (where
they exist) while running on whatever gasoline is available locally. On top of this
there are new car warranty obligations that have to be met even if the car is abused.

No easy task, and to meet these goals factory engineers are forced to leave some
performance on the table. The OEM ECU will be tuned with more fuel and less ignition
than required for maximum performance. This leaves something to be gained from
fitting an aftermarket ECU, but of course then your warranty is voided.

In 1985 the AE86 (depending on market) did not have a knock sensor, an O2 sensor
or many of the fault detection and "save your engine" sensors fitted to modern cars.
And in that way it could be considered to be crude. But the actual fuel and ignition
mapping was remarkably similar to that seen in basic aftermarket ECU's today.
The OEM ECU idled smoothly once up to temperature, started easily and had good
on and off throttle transitions.

But getting back to the point I was trying to make in my previous post, when the
4AGE changed from bigport to smallport, many of the engine basics changed. And
the OEM ECU also changed to match the new engine configuration. So while it is
possible to run a smallport on a bigport ECU, or a 4AGTE on a GZE ECU, or just
about anything on a Honda ECU... THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT A GOOD IDEA !!!

Well... not unless you have amazing skilz and don't mind spending a lot of time
and money building something that runs almost as well as a factory setup ;)

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Small port 4age with big port cams - Timing & Injector questions

Postby Rogue-AE95 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:24 pm

jondee86 wrote:or just about anything on a Honda ECU... THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT A GOOD IDEA !!!

Well... not unless you have amazing skilz and don't mind spending a lot of time
and money building something that runs almost as well as a factory setup ;)


I disagree somewhat with this. Besides my All-Trac, I also own a Honda, which I temporarily fitted with a D15Z1 engine (considered a real POS in the Honda scene). I bought the engine from a guy who rebuilt it and set it up with a turbo, then tuned a programmable Honda ECU to get the best gas mileage out of it. The D15 engine is going into a 3rd car of mine, once I get it fixed up, so I'm testing out this low-mileage engine in my other Honda. Originally when I swapped in the engine I used a stock fuel map for it, but was getting worse mileage than that car's original engine (which needs a rebuild).

So I put the guy's tune on a programmable ECU, and even though I'm not yet running the turbo, I'm getting much better mileage and even more power out of the 92 HP-rated weakling engine. It's all in the monitoring and tuning, I guess. The guy I bought the D15 engine from did a lot of tinkering with the tuning to get it just right.
'88 Corolla All-Trac

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Re: Small port 4age with big port cams - Timing & Injector questions

Postby jondee86 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:59 pm

Rogue-AE95 wrote:I disagree somewhat with this.

From what you just wrote it is fairly obvious that you are not a starry-eyed noob starting
out to turn a $300 Corolla into a dream machine :) I accept that almost anything can be
made to work by someone with a good understanding of how the internal combustion engine
function,s, and how automobile electrical and control systems work. My comments are not
aimed at you or anyone who has already attained a black belt in the Zen of Car Mods :ugeek:

My remarks are intended to perhaps make the Path to Enlightenment less hazardous for
those folk starting out on their first project. Doing an engine swap with a fully stock engine,
accessories, ECU and harness is always going to go better than trying to fit together a bunch
of loose parts gathered from half a dozen different engines. I cringe when I see people
paying good money for used pistons and rods to put into a bare block with unknown history.

And how many folk rely on matching the colour of wires when mixing and matching harnesses
from different model cars, when they should be working with a multimeter and wiring diagrams.
The Path to Enlightenment is not easy... but old cars are a great place to start as they are
mechanically simple and the electrics are easy to understand. Nothing builds confidence like
success with your first modification or repair, no matter how small.

Once the basics have been mastered and a persons understanding of how stuff works grows,
then is the time to start looking for more ambitious projects. I know perfectly well that it is
possible to turbo a bigport engine and run it on the factory ECU with a few other tricks and
mods. But the guy who did it was on his third engine before he got one to stay running for
more than a couple of days :)

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Small port 4age with big port cams - Timing & Injector questions

Postby Rogue-AE95 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:58 am

Gotcha :idea: I don't think I've reached blackbelt status quite yet, though :? The Honda side of things is much easier because so much has already been done, it comes down to either riding on the shoulders of someone else (like me buying that engine and using the tune for it) or following along with what someone else has done. Of course one should always have a custom built engine tuned after getting it together.

I remember reading once about someone on the old forum saying how they had so many hours (hundreds maybe?) into tuning their built engine and it wasn't right yet. I can't imagine a competent tuner having so much trouble getting it just right. Unless the tuner was the guy in question and didn't know what he was doing, or he was changing his mind about how he wanted it to run. I keep hearing about how the 16v 4A-GE is such a simple engine. How can tuning it take dozens of hours? Unless you're just learning how to DIY and you're playing it safe (as you should).
'88 Corolla All-Trac

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Re: Small port 4age with big port cams - Timing & Injector questions

Postby jondee86 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:19 pm

As a DIY tuner I can confirm that it is a long and time consuming process to road tune
a programmable ECU. Getting the engine to run is relatively easy, but getting it to run
as well as a factory tuned ECU is much more difficult. Because of the cost of dyno time
and professional tuning, often it is only the WOT condition that gets tuned. After all,
for many people bragging rights are more important than having a car their mom can
drive to the mall :)

But when you want a car that runs well under all driving conditions, the whole of the
ignition and fuel maps has to be tuned, sensors calibrated and multiple compensation
tables adjusted for different temperature and load conditions. Whenever you read words
like bogging, surging, misfiring, stalling, lacks power, hard starting etc., and the car
has a programmanle ECU, there is a good chance that there is a tuning issue.

Playing it safe is the name og the game. My DIY tuning revolves around making a log
virtually every time I drive the car, and then using the data from the log to make small
adjustments to maps and compensation tables. After making adjustments I save the
revised tune, and I am currently on tune number 103 :D For the moment I am trying to
stay rich and retarded to avoid damaging anything. Eventually when I am happy that
I have all the basics reasonably well sorted, I will bite the bullet and have a professional
dyno tune for MBT (minimum timing for best torque).

Tuning for MBT on a load holding dyne is the key to unlocking all the performance of
an engine. If you don't tune to MBT you are either leaving performance on the table or
risking detonation. And as knock detection dosen't work on my engine due to mechanical
noise from the s/c, I have to be super cautious on timing to stay out of det.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Small port 4age with big port cams - Timing & Injector questions

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:29 pm

jondee86 wrote: I have to be super cautious on timing to stay out of det.

Cheers... jondee86


could just as easily used debt..........
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: Small port 4age with big port cams - Timing & Injector questions

Postby jondee86 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:51 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:Could just as easily used debt..........

True dat !! My car has already cost a lot to get to the point it is at now, and I wouldn't
want to be adding the cost of rebuilding the engine again. In true project fashion, this
build has cost more than twice what I expected to spend. The only consolation is that
if I average it out over the 15 years I have owned the car, it doesn't seem so bad :)

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Small port 4age with big port cams - Timing & Injector questions

Postby quietskaterguy » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:25 pm

Sorry I haven't updated anyone on the questions and my results. I've been on the road with work and not able to get into the garage. Hoping I can get in there this week and get the car running smoothly before the snow flies!
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