4ag Blue-top Build Advice

animal15
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 3:53 pm

4ag Blue-top Build Advice

Postby animal15 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:05 pm

Hi people... I need some advice on my rebuild. I did google and search here but could find right ideas..
I got 4age early blue top in my car looking for rebuilt it.

I also have
HKS 272 cams with 8.1mm lift (used)
Wiseco forge pistons 81.5 bore with 10.17:1-11.09:1 comp (used)
Using stock rods (18mm) and crank (40mm)
Fully ITB setup
Adaptronic ECU with COP setup.
Car will be daily drive.

Want to know few thigs….
1) What sort of head work should I get? OEM size valves and springs?
2) Can I run TRD .8 head gasket with above pistons on 98 ron safely?
3) Cam card says maximum RPM rang is 8800. Is it safe to take bottom end up to that range?


Yes I read Bill Sherwood articles; but need advice from people done it in really world and have experience.

Cheers
Isuru.

I’m from AUS Melbourne. Already post this on Toymods as well.

Disable adblock

This site is supported by ads and donations.
If you see this text you are blocking our ads.
Please consider a Donation to support the site.


User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2319
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: 4ag Blue-top Build Advice

Postby jondee86 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:11 pm

Hiya... and congratulations on your first post :)

How far you go with this build will depend on the condition of the items
you already have, and how much you are prepared to invest in machine work.
If the pistons are in good shape, and the block has no damage to the bores,
you can bore it out to the first oversize of 81.5 and fit the Wiseco's (get your
machinist to set the clearance when honing the bores). A new set of rings and
that part is sorted.

Since the engine will be apart youwill most likely be in need of new bearings.
But first have the crank measured and ground/polished as necessary. Check
that the oil pump is good to go another round and replace all the usual items
such as seals, water pump, tensioner etc. Now your bottom end is done. But
don't expect to run 8800rpm on stock rods, and the crank won't last long either.
I'd suggest that you redline at 8000 or maybe at 8200 if you are not planning
to sit on the limiter.

Stock valves and springs will work. Headwork is good... get as much as you
can afford. If you deck the block and skim the head you could use a TRD gasket,
otherwise stick with the stock type. With an aftermaket ECU you can back the
timing off if you find that you are getting knock with your 98RON gas.

Figure the total cost of the build before you commit... and add at least 20%
to cover those items you forgot :)

Cheers... jondee86
Give a person a fish, they eat for a day. Suggest they search before posting, and they learn a skill for a lifetime.

animal15
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 3:53 pm

Re: 4ag Blue-top Build Advice

Postby animal15 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:53 am

Thnx jondee86

may be on dyno it will push to 8000rpm but i won't gonna push it to that limit when its done.
or i have to find small-port crank and rods.....

have no idea about how much machinist gonna cost in aus. have to ring up few places and find out.

do you know roughly much this build will cost ( with decent head work)?
i konw ur in New Zealand.. MRP CNC ported heads are so tempting but so expensive. :o

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2319
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: 4ag Blue-top Build Advice

Postby jondee86 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:32 am

Can't say what it might cost in AU but here are some costs based on what I paid
here in NZ about 3 years ago...

1500 engine reconditioner strip and clean block, bore and hone to suit new pistons,
deck block for MLS head gasket, fit pistons to rods, fit new rod bolts, polish crank,
measure clearances, re-fit bearings, check oil pump, fit new seals and assemble
200 add if new bearings required (mine were OK to re-use)
400 set of new GZE pistons and rings
200 engine overhaul gasket set
180 MLS head gasket
750 machinist strip and clean head, surface head for MLS gasket, deshroud valves,
clean up intake bowls, backcut intake valves (no work on the exhaust side)
150 water pump, cambelt and tensioner
100 new Toyota head bolts and rod bolts

So around NZ$3000 (since you already have pistons) if you shop around and get a
good deal for the machine work. I only had the basic head work done. You can pay
more if you want the exhaust side cleaned up, or if your valves, guides or seats
need work. I was quoted $4500 for a fully worked head by a race engine builder,
and that didn't include flow benching :shock: Some new valve springs would be
good insurance... TRD, HKS or TODA at around $300 a set.

There may be other costs that don't become apparent until the block has been
stripped and measured... like a new oil pump or a crank grind. That's what the
extra 20% is for.

Cheers... jondee86
Give a person a fish, they eat for a day. Suggest they search before posting, and they learn a skill for a lifetime.

Disable adblock

This site is supported by ads and donations.
If you see this text you are blocking our ads.
Please consider a Donation to support the site.


User avatar
oldeskewltoy
Club4AG MASTER
Posts: 1796
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:44 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: 4ag Blue-top Build Advice

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:21 pm

if you have a photo of your Wiseco pistons... please post it. I'll reserve the rest until I know what Wiseco you actually have.
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

animal15
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 3:53 pm

Re: 4ag Blue-top Build Advice

Postby animal15 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:37 pm

Thank you very much for that information jondee86 ,

oldeskewltoy ,
i don't have actual photo of them now.. but i searched the part number they looks like this...
some reason can't attached pic..

this is the same part number from

https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/ ... /overview/

User avatar
oldeskewltoy
Club4AG MASTER
Posts: 1796
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:44 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: 4ag Blue-top Build Advice

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:09 pm

animal15 wrote:Thank you very much for that information jondee86 ,

oldeskewltoy ,
i don't have actual photo of them now.. but i searched the part number they looks like this...
some reason can't attached pic..

this is the same part number from

https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/ ... /overview/


Does it look like/similar to this.....
Image


OR... closer to these....
ImageImage
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

User avatar
oldeskewltoy
Club4AG MASTER
Posts: 1796
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:44 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: 4ag Blue-top Build Advice

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:35 pm

https://www.wiseco.com/Catalogs/SportCo ... Toyota.pdf

Based on the info in pdf above... you really don't want that piston... it is a extreme piston - I don't recommend Crown volume that large (either 5cc, or 5.9cc) is huge. Stock 9.4:1 piston is negative 3.8cc, and high comp(10.3:1) piston is negative .5cc and Toda pistons are 3.7cc. So a piston with PLUS 5, or more cc is HUGE.
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

User avatar
oldeskewltoy
Club4AG MASTER
Posts: 1796
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:44 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: 4ag Blue-top Build Advice

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:42 pm

animal15 wrote:Hi people... I need some advice on my rebuild. I did google and search here but could find right ideas..
I got 4age early blue top in my car looking for rebuilt it.

I also have
HKS 272 cams with 8.1mm lift (used)
Wiseco forge pistons 81.5 bore with 10.17:1-11.09:1 comp (used)
Using stock rods (18mm) and crank (40mm)
Fully ITB setup
Adaptronic ECU with COP setup.
Car will be daily drive.

Want to know few thigs….
1) What sort of head work should I get? OEM size valves and springs?
2) Can I run TRD .8 head gasket with above pistons on 98 ron safely?
3) Cam card says maximum RPM rang is 8800. Is it safe to take bottom end up to that range?


Yes I read Bill Sherwood articles; but need advice from people done it in really world and have experience.

Cheers
Isuru.

I’m from AUS Melbourne. Already post this on Toymods as well.


1) You don't need oversize valves - the cost is considerable

2) You might be able to run the TRD gasket but that will make your static compression a lot closer to 12.3+

3) For an 40mm rod journal crank I'd try to keep rpm to about 8500, or less.
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

animal15
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 3:53 pm

Re: 4ag Blue-top Build Advice

Postby animal15 » Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:47 pm

it more like 1st pic.

oldeskewltoy
thnx for that advice.

it looks like i couldn't use any wesico pistons. (why they recommend for 4AGE?)

what are the negative effects if i use above pistons? (both pistons and cams i got it for free.. so thought to save some money on them)

Can i be able to get 100kw pistons from Toyota?

as for head porting what sort of work should i get ?

sorry for noob questions.. this is my first time want get everything right... :oops:

User avatar
oldeskewltoy
Club4AG MASTER
Posts: 1796
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:44 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: 4ag Blue-top Build Advice

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:50 pm

animal15 wrote:it more like 1st pic.

oldeskewltoy
thnx for that advice.

it looks like i couldn't use any wesico pistons. (why they recommend for 4AGE?)

what are the negative effects if i use above pistons? (both pistons and cams i got it for free.. so thought to save some money on them)

Can i be able to get 100kw pistons from Toyota?

as for head porting what sort of work should i get ?

sorry for noob questions.. this is my first time want get everything right... :oops:


I sure wish you had a photo... of the crowns.... :( 5 cc is a LOT of crown volume

You can still get smallport (100kw) pistons from Toyota, but they don't fit your rods unless you modify your rods, OR buy a rod designed to fit your crank, and a 20mm pin. There are(were) similar pistons Toyota used in a few TVIS engines in Europe, and Singapore(10:1) I've recently installed a set in a clients engine. The problem is finding one of these sets - not easy to come by.....

A 10:1 piston with a .032"(.8mm) squish, and a zero deck(pistons edge flush with blocks edge) will net to a final static CR of 10.4:1. Cut the head so the chamber volume is 35cc instead of 36cc and you are just about @10.7:1

A 10:3:1 piston with a .032"(.8mm) squish, and a zero deck(pistons edge flush with blocks edge) will net to a final static CR of 10.7:1. Cut the head so the chamber volume is 35cc instead of 36cc and you are just about @11:1.



As to head porting - that is what I do for a living. A largeport head needs some work on the intake seats, and bowls, some work inside the combustion chamber, and some work inside the exhaust seats/bowls/ports.
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

Disable adblock

This site is supported by ads and donations.
If you see this text you are blocking our ads.
Please consider a Donation to support the site.



Return to “TECH: 4A-GE ENGINE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests