Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

aceforever
Club4AG Pro
Posts: 637
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:36 am
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:36 am

Ah I didn't know that! Thanks for the information.

I'm also glad I don't have to deal with the fuel rail at the moment.

I'm pretty excited about getting the engine idling. If the junkyard ignitor works, I should be super close then?

So excited!!

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2915
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:03 pm

Before you power up the whole system, check these few things...

1. Make sure that wherever 12V is gonna go, there is no direct
short to ground. There has to be some kind of load (resistance) in
the circuit. Like a solenoid valve, injector, fuel pump etc.

2. Go overboard checking grounds... engine to chassis (at least one
fat wire, usually down by the starter, plus one skinny wire from the
back of the head to the firewall.

3. ECU grounds all run separately but coming together at a good
solid bolted connection to the block.

4. ECU sensor ground, run as per the manual.

5. Coil grounded to chassis. If it is not a metal case type of coil, it
should have a separate ground wire.

So long as you have a working transistor in the igniter that switches
the coil to ground when it gets an IGt signal, you should be good :)

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

aceforever
Club4AG Pro
Posts: 637
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:36 am
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:41 pm

I'll triple check the connections. I found a really thick wire not attached to anything to the right of the engine bay. I attached it to a bolt on the engine and it seemed like it's supposed to be there.

I attached up the ignitor and the tacho moves. I think around 0-200rpm. I'll test with a timing light to see if each spark plug wire has spark.

aceforever
Club4AG Pro
Posts: 637
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:36 am
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:20 pm

So I got help with the timing light and it seems the first cylinder is sparking less than the 3rd and 4th. The 2nd sometimes sparks and sometimes doesn't. I'm guessing it's the spark wires? Or perhaps it's the IGt from ECU? Or maybe the timing light sensor is too close to the other spark plug wires?

I have trigger angle at 60 on ecu and that caused the crank pulley mark to show at a way right of the timing indicators. If I lower it to 30 it's closer to the timing marks. But still quite a bit to the right.

Thinking about it, if rpm is 188, then it should spark around 2 per second right? Cylinder 3 and 4 are correct then.

I measured the resistance of the coil and spark plug wires. Coils are 13k or so. They are fine.

The spark plug are cyl 1: 7.6k 2: 9.0k 3: 8.6k 4: 9.4k. Manual says 25k, guessing I need new spark plug wires? I'll try switching the wires to see if that affects the timing.

aceforever
Club4AG Pro
Posts: 637
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:36 am
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:19 am

I got a friend to come help me crank the engine while I check the timing light. After a little fiddling with the ECU settings and the distributor gear offset, I got it timing close enough. At locked timing at 20degrees, it indicates 19. And at 10degrees lock, it shows 11degs. I think I need the noise filter to get closer maybe? I'll go get that later this weekend at the junk yard.

Here's a video at 20 BTDC lock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILsa9jgLMvU

I know the crank pulley spins at twice the rate of cam gears, but is the ignition supposed to sparked everytime the crank pulley goes around? Or is this a side effect of having locked distributor timing on the haltech ecu?

Meanwhile, I'll work on the fuel lines! And cleaning / derusting the interior pieces. I refurbished the cigarette lighter port. It was super rusty but mostly surface rust. I was able to use evapo-rust to get most of the rust off and rust converter for heavier rust. Painted some of the pieces to protect it from rust and reassembled the little bits. Now it works like new!
Image

Rust Converter is pretty great. It converts the top layer of rust into a protective layer.
ImageImage

Evapo-Rust really does its job. You'll see different pieces in the following, but the rust stays.
ImageImage

aceforever
Club4AG Pro
Posts: 637
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:36 am
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:32 am

I've flushed the fuel line going to the fuel rail one last time and connected it to the fuel rail. Fuel is flowing through to the fuel rail and I'm hearing fluids returning back to the fuel tank via the FPR.

I've tested the spark and sparking at 20deg BTDC for the first cylinder when the ECU is set to 20deg lock.

I'm not sure what settings I need to set for injectors, seems like I don't even need to set when to fire them, but only a duration of time it should be fired.

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2915
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:16 am

aceforever wrote:I'm not sure what settings I need to set for injectors, seems like I don't even need
to set when to fire them, but only a duration of time it should be fired.

Once you have told the ECU the engine size, number of cylinders, injector
rating and the fact that you will be batch firing the injectors, the ECU can
figure out when to fire the injectors :)

What you will need to do is check that there are some kind of fuel and injection
maps loaded into the ECU. It is possible that there are maps pre-installed, but
you will need to check in the software. If you are using the TPS as your primary
load input, you should be looking for around 2.5ms on the 0% line and 7.5ms on
the 100% line. You may need a little more around the idle point.

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

aceforever
Club4AG Pro
Posts: 637
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:36 am
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:17 pm

Didn't know that, thanks! And I'll try those inj timings.

What should be the ignition timing? I currently have it at 16btdc.

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2915
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:47 pm

For ignition you could try...
15 deg for 1000rpm and below (0% TPS to 100% TPS)
25 deg for 3000rpm and above (0% TPS to 100% TPS)
Make a straight line taper up from 1000 to 3000rpm, which means
that you would have 20 deg at 2000rpm and so on. Use the same advance
for all % TPS openings.

That's just for getting the engine started... more tuning would be required
before doing anything more than just granny the car around :)

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

aceforever
Club4AG Pro
Posts: 637
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:36 am
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Sun May 03, 2015 7:54 pm

It starts!!!!! WoooooooooooOooOoooooO.

But it keeps on climbing after it starts up. You know how to stop that? Less gas? EDIT: I think this is part of the cold start up stuff, it idles at 2700 rpm after a minute

Here's a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDyt6qTa8-A

Does the engine sound healthy?

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2915
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Sun May 03, 2015 11:12 pm

Image
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2915
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Sun May 03, 2015 11:28 pm

The engine is getting a bit of extra air because the AAV will stay open
due to the lack of coolant circulation around the valve. You can clamp one
of the air hoses partially closed to bring the idle down.

Image

Either the hose from the filter, or the hose to the throttles. Engine sounds
fine. Now you just need to slowly step your way thru the tuning process using
your AFR gauge to make sure you don't go any leaner than 14.7:1 (richer is
safer).

Congratulations and well done dude !!! You are 90% of the way home now :D

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

aceforever
Club4AG Pro
Posts: 637
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:36 am
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Sun May 03, 2015 11:36 pm

Thanks man! I'll get on that next!

I hope there is an adjustment valve on the AAV, I'll have to clamp it like you suggested if there isn't.

I'm so excited to get this car back on the road but there are still lots of things to work on before that.

aceforever
Club4AG Pro
Posts: 637
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:36 am
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Mon May 04, 2015 8:28 pm

Looks like the AAV stuff isn't adjustable. I was able to adjust the ITBs a bit to lower the RPM down to 1500. It seems like the ITBs don't close up all the way naturally and if I pinch the assembly that controls how open it is, it idles lower. A friend said I might have to replace the ITBs?

I was trying my hand at tuning the AFR and it's pretty hard to get right. When running at idle, it was staying around 10 AFR. I lowered the fuel injection to around 1.5ms and it was closer to 13 AFR.

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2915
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Mon May 04, 2015 9:50 pm

First, give you friend a punch in the head for suggesting that you should
replace your HKS throttlebodies :mrgreen:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6j4n6 ... sp=sharing

This pic of yours shows the throttle stop screw located on the LHS of each
throttlebody. These need to be adjusted so that the throttle arm lands on the
end of the screw at exactly the same time as the edge of the butterfly touches
the inside of the throttle. What you want is as near to zero clearance between
the butterfly and the bore as you can get without actually hitting the bore
when the throttle is pulled closed by the spring.

Then you need to adjust the length of those two linkages with the black bits
on each end. What you want is both throttle spindles starting to move at
exactly the same time... not one before the other. Take into account any slop
in the little ball joints... it does not matter if the main actuator spindle moves
a fraction before the throttle spindles start to move, so long as the butterflys
in both throttlebodies crack open at the same time.

After that, adjust the stop for the main actuator spindle to remove any
unnecessary slop in the linkages. But take care to leave a small amount of
slop to ensure the butterflys are not lifted off their stops. Lube the linkages,
spindle bearings and springs with WD40 or similar, and ensure there is no
binding or sticking when you operate the main linkage spindle.

Check to see if the throttlebodies have a bleed screw for by-passing a small
amount of air around the butterfly in each throat. Sometimes these are
provided for adjusting the air leakage on the throttles for balancing purposes.

Then use your timing light to verify your actual ignition timing at the crank.

If you have 15 deg or close, you are OK. If you have more than 15 deg, you
can try reducing the timing to bring the idle speed down. After that, if the
idle is still too high, you will need to look for vacuum leaks. If no vacuum leaks
are found, it will be necessary to restrict the air from the AAV by putting a
restrictor in one of the hoses.

HINT: Actually,, doing this ^^^^ last thing first will save a lot of messing round,
as the AAV staying open is what is pushing your idle high. But getting the ITB's
properly adjusted and synch'ed is something you need to do some time ;)

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

aceforever
Club4AG Pro
Posts: 637
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:36 am
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Wed May 06, 2015 10:56 am

Thanks for the hint! I'm going to get the engine up to temperature, then clamp the AAV hose. How do you check for vacuum leaks? I was thinking of just putting my hand next to places and try to feel if there's any air being sucked in.

Hahaha @ punching my friend. I'm testing out various things but even without the linkages even attached and the ITBs resting at 0% TPS with tuning screws set all the way back (there's even a gap between the rocker arm and tuning screw), the ITBs don't make an air tight seal causing the revs to be higher. If you apply pressure to close the ITBs rocker arms that open and close the butterfly valves, it idles lower. I'll try the no AAV to see if that would help get it idling lower.

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2915
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Wed May 06, 2015 4:03 pm

You can make a pretty good stethoscope for finding leaks out of a short
length of garden hose (or similar hose). Take a piece about one meter long
and put one end to your ear while probing around the inlet side with the
other end. Listen for a hissing/sucking type noise.

You can also balance your throttles using the same piece of hose. Insert
the free end of the hose into each throttle while the engine is idling. Take
care as the noise can be quite loud. Compare the sound from each throttle
and adjust until both throttlebodies sound the same. Check that the
injector nose insulators are seated correctly, as that is one potential place
for vacuum leaks.

When throttle have some wear on them from use, they can leak a bit
more than you want even when fully closed. If the butterfly has been allowed
to bang closed against the bore instead of against the throttle stop, it can
cut a groove in the bore; the spindle bushings wear; things get bent; global
warming happens while you are asleep etc. Just make sure they are clean
inside with no burrs or carbon blocking the butterflys, lubed and adjusted
the best you can. They will be OK.

The engine needs a certain amount of air to idle, and it likes a bit more
air to help get it started. That is the role of the AAV. However, it has been
well proven that engines without an operating AAV will still start, even when
it is cold out. The downside is that it may be necessary to play with the
throttle for a minute or two to keep the engine running until it starts to
warm up. Also, the idle speed will rise 400 or 500 rpm from cold to fully
warmed up.

In your case I am suggesting that you accept that you will have a bit more
leakage thru the throttles at idle, and you offset this by cutting back on the
air entering via you (non-operative) AAV. The end result is the same as above.
Effectively you have a fixed orifice metering idle air, and you can expect your
warm idle to rise. At some later date you can look at either reinstating the
cooling water connections to the AAV or installing a PWM operated ISCV
that can be controlled by the ECU. <=== I have one and it works great 8-)

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

aceforever
Club4AG Pro
Posts: 637
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:36 am
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Thu May 07, 2015 12:34 am

Thanks for the tips! I'll test that out.

Today, I was playing around with the AAV. I've blocked off the AAV intake with a piece of electrical tape and it still starts takes a few more cranks to get going. (maybe it's because of the lesser fuel? will have to verify) The engine idles at 1500rpm with no AAV. I think there's a lot more air leaking on the ITBs at idle than I want. I've tried to sync up the two linkages to the best of my ability, but I'll need that stethoscope to see if there any other leaks.

I also found some carburetor tuners that might be helpful for syncing up ITBs.
http://www.amazon.com/Emgo-Carburetor-S ... 003CJGDE8/

Perhaps I should get one?

The PWM operated ISCV sounds like a much better solution, why didn't toyota engineer those to begin with? haha. I guess the original mechanical parts last longer than solenoids or whatever is controlling the valve?

I'm also noticing that my TPS sensor is quite odd, it is the OEM sensor. I've calibrated the ECU so that closed = 0% and open = 100% however when the engine is started and alternator kicking in, I noticed that my TPS is at 3-5% and fluctuates. I'm guessing the TPS is just a potentiometer and it takes +5 volts and sends a voltage back to the ECU? I think this an electrical inconsistency where something is not grounded properly perhaps? Or maybe the vacuum is pulling the ITBs a little bit?

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2915
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Thu May 07, 2015 2:58 am

For cold starting you need to have set up the following items...
1. Coolant Temp Correction (enrichment x temp - important)
2. Air Temp Correction (enrichment x temp - not so important)
3. Post Start Map (enrichment x time - important)
4. Fuel Pump Prime (not so important)
5. Ignition Timing while Cranking (important)
6. Fuel Enrichment while Cranking (enrichment x temp - important)

These items are the items that you will need to adjust to ensure that
your engine starts and idles like factory stock. Some will have separate
tables, and others may be incorporated into your main fuel and ignition
maps. In general, a cold engine likes quite a lot of extra fuel while
cranking, more air (if you have an ECU controlled ISCV) and less ignition
advance. The post start enrichment tapers down to zero after 10-20
seconds, as by then the engine should have stabilised and be happy
running on the coolant temp correction. Coolant correction tapers down
to zero as the engine reaches operating temperature.

A meter for balancing the throttles is handy when you are juggling four
independently adjustable throttles. Your ITB's run two butterflys on each
spindle, so you should be able to get them close enough by ear. Keep
fiddling to see if you can get them to close a little better. If you can get
the idle rpm down by pressing gently on the throttle arms, stronger
springs might be helpful. Make sure there are no open spigots that may
be provided for the brake booster, MAP sensor, FPR or PCV hose.

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

aceforever
Club4AG Pro
Posts: 637
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:36 am
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Mon May 11, 2015 7:39 pm

Man this tuning thing is hard to get right. I'm currently looking at tuners around here to complete the tune. I didn't get far by myself.

Should I do a full fluids flush at this point? Should I use an engine flush of some sort? I'm guessing transmission and diff oil should be changed too.

Coolant definitely needs a flush or something since the water is dark brown and rust like. I also need to replace radiator at some point since it was leaking water when I had a friend compress the coolant system. The heater control valve is totally stuck, I bought a used one from someone around here who did an SR20 swap. How do I make sure I don't create air pockets when replacing all these fluids?

I was also thinking should I fabricate some plate for a ITG or pipercross filter of some sort? Or should I encapsulate the system like how the black top/silvertop does it? I'm not sure how long these filters last and what would be most efficient solution without sacrificing too much power.

I'm guessing all this needs to be done before the actual tune right?

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2915
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Mon May 11, 2015 10:46 pm

Self-tuning is quite an involved learning process. And you cannot do
it with the car sitting in the garage. Once you have the idle row tuned
you have to be able to put a bit of load on the engine, and you can only
do that by driving it or putting it on a dyno. If you try to tune on the
road, you definitely need to have someone sitting alongside to make
changes on the laptop while you try and keep the rpm and throttle
opening steady.

Changing the differential and gearbox oil will not be critical. If you
take the fill plug out, stick your finger in, and oil is not far away from
the level of the plug, you will be OK for now. The engine you can warm
up, drain and refill with fresh oil. Fit a new filter while you are in there.

No flush required on those, but the cooling system is a different animal.
If your radiator is already leaking, using a cooling system flush will
almost certainly uncover other leaks... heater, hose connections, water
pump and gaskets where water fittings bolt to the engine. The chemicals
in the flush remove all the corrosion deposits that are sealing potential
leaks, and suddenly, water is issing out everywhere. You can either
flush and deal with leaks now, or replace the radiator and hold off with
the chemical flush until later.

If you take the latter course, open the top and bottom radiator hoses
and stick your garden hose in the top hose. Blast water thru there until
it runs clear. Then connect to the new radiator and fill the system with
a good corrosion inhibitor mixed as per the label. Run the engine with
the radiator cap off until it reaches operating temperature (heater tap
open). That will get the air out.

The ITG type filter is way better than any individual "sock" type filters.
If you go the ITG way, fit the highest flowing filter that will actually
fit in the available space (tallest foam). A cold air box with a remote
filter like the 20V engines have from the factory is the best solution,
but also the most difficult to implement. Quieter also :|

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

User avatar
YoShImUrA
Club4AG Expert
Posts: 201
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:33 pm
Location: Spain

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby YoShImUrA » Mon May 11, 2015 10:52 pm

Always great learning stuff from you, Jondee. Thanks for all the tips. Most of them useful outside of this thread as well!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

aceforever
Club4AG Pro
Posts: 637
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:36 am
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Tue May 12, 2015 8:24 pm

Thanks Jondee! That is a lot of awesome tips. I'll perform an oil change and coolant change as soon as I can.

For tuning I think I really would like someone else to tune the engine at this point. I'd like to be able to tune at some point but right now I really want to be able to drive the car and focus on body work.

I'll have to think about the coolant flush though. I'm not sure if I want to replace a ton of gaskets. I'm just worried that during the tuning process some leaks will occur and delay the tune. Is that possible? Does the radiator need to be replaced before any tuning? Since it's not pressurized, does that mean the engine might overheat if pushed too hard?

Again thanks for your awesome advice. I really appreciate it.

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2915
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Tue May 12, 2015 10:45 pm

You can only run the engine with the radiator cap off at idle, or a little
above. Once the thermostat opens, when you rev the engine, water gets
pushed vigorously into the radiator, and if the cap is not on, the radiator
will overflow :shock:

When the engine is run with the radiator cap on, the system is pressurized.
As the coolant heats up it expands and pushes excess out into the overflow
(expansion) tank. When it cools down, it contracts, creates a vacuum, and
draws coolant back into the radiator. From memory, cooling system pressure
max's out at 8psi before the spring-loaded valve in the radiator cap opens
to relieve excess pressure. Once the system pressure goes below atmospheric,
a flap valve opens and coolant can return from the overflow tank.

This means that if the radiator has a decent sized leak, you can lose a lot
of coolant quite quickly. So I would suggest that you get a good used, new
or reconditioned radiator installed before you go for a dyno tune. Running
the engine in the garage (with the radiator cap on) until it hits operating
temperature should show up any leaks. Anything that makes a puddle on the
floor needs fixing :P

When you talk to a tuner, make sure that he understands that you have an
old Haltech, as he will either have to use your laptop or load the software
onto his... and DOS could be a bit of a problem. The methods of setting up
fuel and ignition maps on the E6X are quite different from most modern ECU's
and you will need to find someone who is prepared to work with the E6X.

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

aceforever
Club4AG Pro
Posts: 637
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:36 am
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Fri May 15, 2015 1:26 pm

So I've talked to a tuner that might actually work on my Haltech. He says I need to get the car road worthy before he even will tune it. Also he told me to drive it up to his shop so he can check it out. (Maybe I can granny my way there. It's 37 miles away)

I'm going through the steps you mentioned for the coolant. I bought one of these a while ago:

http://www.amazon.com/Mishimoto-MMRAD-AE86-83-Transmission-Performance-Aluminium/dp/B003GZ8DU0/

Hopefully it just bolts up. It looks like from the pictures it has a 19lbs valve cap valve.

I think the front left caliper might be seized? It seems to not want to turn when I jacked the car up.

What do you think? Should I drive the car up there after doing all the fluid maintenance and checking the brakes?

EDIT:
I did put the car in 1st gear and try to inch it out of the garage, and it does seem to move okay. Reverse seems to work too. Not sure about the rest of the gears though.

I'm also a little worried about running so rich. I'm getting around 10-11 AFR when I have inj settings that don't cause the engine to stall when I try to accelerate.

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2915
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Fri May 15, 2015 5:31 pm

OK... I was lead to believe that Haltech ECU's were delivered with some kind of
base map already loaded, but better to proceed on the basis that we need to put
in all the basic fuel information. This will serve as a check to make sure what is
in the table is more or less in the ballpark.

FUEL MAP (TPS vs RPM)
Here is your basic fuel map. I have used 2.5ms as the minimum and 8.5ms as
the maximum injector duration. These values may be a bit off, and you will
need to adjust them according to what you are reading on your AFR gauge.

Image

For starters we will use the same "slice" for all load (TPS) values, so by using
copy and paste, we arrive at a planar 3D fuel map that looks like this...

Image

COOLANT TEMPERATURE CORRECTION MAP
Something like this. Again these are pretty much guesses, and if the engine
struggles to hold an idle when cold, you will need to up the values.

Image

POST START ENRICHMENT MAP
Adds a bit of extra fuel for a short time when starting the engine from cold.

Image

IGNITION MAP
And here is the ignition map based on the parameters I gave you before. This
is not fancy and by no means tuned, but it should let you drive around safely until
you get a dyno tune or get a bit more adventurous yourself :)

Image

THROTTLE PUMP CORRECTION
With ITB's, at a small throttle opening angle, there is a big increase in throttle
open area for a small increase in throttle opening angle. This causes a stumble
when you mash the throttle at low rpm, unless you give the engine an extra squirt
of fuel (think accelerator pump on carbs). ITB's need a lot of extra fuel between
1000 and 2000rpm, and the E6X has a correction table to allow the amount of
extra fuel to be programmed.

Unfortunately, the corrections are done in a way that I cannot crossover from my
own ECU, so you will need to experiment with 0 RPM (0 --> 1500rpm) and 1500 RPM
(1500 --> 3000rpm) columns. Little or no enrichment is required above 3ooorpm.

As you can guess, I have loaded up the E6X software on my desktop (XP) and it
seems to run fine. Using the keyboard instead of the mouse to change things
takes a bit of getting used to, but it works :)

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

aceforever
Club4AG Pro
Posts: 637
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:36 am
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Fri May 15, 2015 8:49 pm

My first engine oil change on the car! I let the engine warm up first then onto the oil change. The oil drain bolt was torqued pretty tight. Luckily my jack bar went over the socket wrench handle and I was able to get the bolt off with that. Drained the old oil, replaced the oil filter (tightened that by hand), screwed back the drain bolt (couldn't find torque settings so I tightened it by hand using the smallest socket wrench I had) and refilled the engine with Castrol GTX 10W30. Wasn't too bad at all.

I wanted to check the transmission oil like you said but the fill bolt on top was a non-OEM bolt. I tried my biggest 19mm socket, but the bolt is bigger. I'm guessing 20mm or greater. Need to find some sockets that are big like that to get it off. I have a crescent wrench that would fit over the bolt but my jack bar didn't go over it so I had no leverage. Will have to check that some other time.

I accidentally grinded the starter motor gear on the flywheel today. I tried to start up the car and the engine didn't start up very well and was rotating at 100rpm. Without thinking I tried to use the starter motor again. Man I'm stupid. Luckily it didn't damage the gears too bad. Learned that lesson the hard way.

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2915
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Sat May 16, 2015 1:18 am

Trying to start the engine when it is already running is something that everyone
will do a few times in their lifetime :) It sounds bad but I think the starter can
handle it OK. That radiator should be a straight bolt-up with the factory brackets
and hoses. On the bottom of your old radiator there should be some fat rubber
washers for the rad to sit in. Make sire they are there. And if the brackets at
the top are at all loose, pad them with a bit of rubber to stop any rubbing.

Make sure that oil filter is good and tight. I have done them by hand when I did
not have a filter wrench, but I bought a cheap rubber lined clamp thing with a
handle that gets at least another quarter turn on the filter. And I can get them
off without having to hammer a big screwdriver into the filter now :P

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

aceforever
Club4AG Pro
Posts: 637
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:36 am
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby aceforever » Sat May 16, 2015 9:06 am

Thanks so much for taking the time to download the haltech program and snapping those shots!

With ITB's, at a small throttle opening angle, there is a big increase in throttle
open area for a small increase in throttle opening angle.

THIS. THIS IS WHAT I WAS MISSING ALL THIS TIME! Thanks man!

This makes A LOT of sense. Currently, I have to gradually apply throttle for it AND run richer for the engine to not stall if I tune to the right AFR at idle. I'm guessing since I'm running rich, there's extra fuel already to help with the change in intake volume. I'll play around with this.

Adds a bit of extra fuel for a short time when starting the engine from cold.

I'm currently idling at 1500rpm at around 10-11 AFR post start and after a minute or so, it goes to 13.6AFR. Are engines suppose to run richer during cold start? If so, how much? It looks like from the graph, you're recommending 20 second post start easing time.

I usually use the fuel map in 3D view and I have something really similar. I was tuning some of the 0-10% TPS as my TPS % fluctuates at idle for some reason.

IGN map is all set up like your picture.

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2915
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

Postby jondee86 » Sat May 16, 2015 4:03 pm

aceforever wrote: Are engines suppose to run richer during cold start?

Yes. The engine needs a lot of extra fuel at cold start, and this is provided by
all the temperature based corrections acting together. The coolant temperature
correction is long-term, ramping down as the engine temperature rises.

The Post Start Enrichment is short-term, lasting only long enough to make sure
the engine operation has stabilized. After 20 seconds (+/-) depending on the
engine, the coolant enrichment should be sufficient to maintain idle. You may
need to adjust the parameters, as while those values work for me, they may
not work for you. Reason being that I have an ECU controlled ISCV that helps
cold starting by supplying extra air and raising the idle for a short while after
starting, much like any modern car.

On a cold start my AFR may go as low 10.8 or 11 for a few seconds, then climb
to 12.5 to 12.8 when the post start enrichment tapers off, then slowly climb
thru the 13's and into the 14's after a few minutes as the engine warms up. If
you need extra fuel to prevent the big stumble when you open the throttle, you
will have to crank up the throttle pump settings. Start by making a big increase
in the 0-1500rpm column and blip the throttle to see what difference it makes.
Keep adjusting until you can blip the throttle and the engine revs cleanly.

==============================================================

EDIT: It's cool here today and I just went and started my car. By the time the
WBO2 stopped blinking and gave a reading (about 10-12 secs) the AFR was 13.2
and it was not long (30-40 secs) before it crept into the 14's and in couple more
minutes it was at 14.7 or close. My ECU supplies extra fuel while cranking which
is similar to the action of the cold start injector on a stock TVIS engine. This fuel
will have cleared from the engine by the time the gauge started registering.

So basically, what I wrote above is all lies :oops: Probably I was thinking about how
it worked with an earlier tune, but none the less, the AFR does start low and
work its way up as the engine warms. Essentially what you have to do is give it
enough fuel to get it to start reliably each time.

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.