Hi comp with ITBs on AEM EMS 4

[ethergore2]

So far the AEM route has been ok but there are a few things that were annoying. The first is that the AEM only sees a falling edge trigger signal but the GZE CAS only puts out a rising edge signal (or maybe I have that backwards). To compensate you have to rewire the GZE CAS and there are no instructions anywhere about how to do this. The other problem I had was getting the computer to connect with the AEM which is still somewhat of a problem. It seems the AEM only likes certain computers for a reason I have not figured out. Another annoyance is that when connected to the computer, the AEM will not turn off one of my injectors when the car dies. This is bad for obvious reasons. Yet another annoyance is that the software has issues if you don't password protect you map.

Like I said however, these are mostly just annoyances. The good things about the EMS 4 are that it can support sequential fuel and ign, as well as, up to 8 accessories, it can work with stock sensors, it has a seemingly fast processor, good map resolution, US support with willing but not always helpful tech support, and is only around $700.

Knowing what I know now I would do the same setup if I wanted an ITB'd 16 v but if I started a new corolla I honestly think I would run an f series Honda motor and would have saved a lot of money. Although I would have lost a lot of coolness points.

Keep in mind that my car is not finished. I'm sure ill be even happier once my car hits the track.

[runkillerrabbit]

i also had in issue with the trigger signal. i couldnt offically figure it out. thats where i got stuck on my build.

mines currently at the tuners right now.

ill ask them how they wired up the CAS

also

im gunna be spending few bucks getting a dyno tune from FSR want that tune mapping for a small donation?

[ethergore2]

i also had in issue with the trigger signal. i couldnt offically figure it out. thats where i got stuck on my build.

mines currently at the tuners right now.

ill ask them how they wired up the CAS

also

im gunna be spending few bucks getting a dyno tune from FSR want that tune mapping for a small donation?

Let me know what they did for it. I don't need any mapping, I already have a rough tune and a running car. Really Grant just has to figure out a bug and then the car is ready for the Dyno.

Thanks tho.

[runkillerrabbit]

will do! ill let you know! im gunna stop by the shop today

[vovinamer]

Knowing what I know now I would do the same setup if I wanted an ITB'd 16 v but if I started a new corolla I honestly think I would run an f series Honda motor and would have saved a lot of money. Although I would have lost a lot of coolness points.

I hear ya completely on the loss of coolness factor... I used to be a huge advocate of Honda f20 swaps into the ae86 as the performance per dollar figure would trump the 4ag any day, but me being older and more wise after having a few ae86s and other high performance vehicles (s2000, Evo 9 se, b8 S4).. And looking into an aircooled 911 and of course another ae86 resto... I realized the 4ag is part of the reason for the 86's spirit and value.. And an f20 swap would devalue the appeal of the 86.. IMO...

[ethergore2]

Knowing what I know now I would do the same setup if I wanted an ITB'd 16 v but if I started a new corolla I honestly think I would run an f series Honda motor and would have saved a lot of money. Although I would have lost a lot of coolness points.

I hear ya completely on the loss of coolness factor... I used to be a huge advocate of Honda f20 swaps into the ae86 as the performance per dollar figure would trump the 4ag any day, but me being older and more wise after having a few ae86s and other high performance vehicles (s2000, Evo 9 se, b8 S4).. And looking into an aircooled 911 and of course another ae86 resto... I realized the 4ag is part of the reason for the 86's spirit and value.. And an f20 swap would devalue the appeal of the 86.. IMO...

I guess for me the coolness factor didn't really do it because I'm just not that nostalgic. I love the AE86 platform but I wouldn't be afraid to swap in whatever I needed to in order to reach my goal. With that said, my goal is to create a super rev happy, simple to maintain and understand, street legal go-kart with amazing throttle response run on sequential fuel and ignition control (no waste here lol). I believe the setup I have was the cheapest and best way to get there.

Thinking back I considered a black top swap but with those you never know how many miles are on the motor once you find one. I figure my setup is basically like a new car. I have rebuilt the entire drive train while simplifying everything electronically. Some may think a EMS is not simple however I think once installed they are much more simple to understand. It's just basically air and fuel with few other variables.

[ethergore2]

I miss my car.

[ethergore2]

So I got a small update on the status of my car. It turns out AEM sold me the wrong coil driver for my car to run their pencil coils. So now I purchased some Toyota coils. I like how these will look better anyways since I can now get the Sam Q plate. I am sad that I wasted money though. Hopefully I can sell the pencil coils and get AEM to refund my coil driver since it was their fault. I doubt it though.

[RidgeRacer]

So I got a small update on the status of my car. It turns out AEM sold me the wrong coil driver for my car to run their pencil coils. So now I purchased some Toyota coils. I like how these will look better anyways since I can now get the Sam Q plate. I am sad that I wasted money though. Hopefully I can sell the pencil coils and get AEM to refund my coil driver since it was their fault. I doubt it though.

I was emailing back and forth with the guys at FSR following the progress of your build before I knew you were a member and posting about it here. What Toyota coils did you go with and do they have built-in ignitors? I was thinking about going with S2000/RSX COPs since those have built-in ignitors for a much cleaner look.

Sam Q plate?

[Garage7RP]

With all the annoyance and unavailable tech support you mentioned, why did you choose AEM EMS 4 instead of haltech, TeC, SDS, or MegaSquirt? With the pricing you mentioned ($700) plus wiring and sensors, you can get any of the other ECUs.

[RidgeRacer]

With all the annoyance and unavailable tech support you mentioned, why did you choose AEM EMS 4 instead of haltech, TeC, SDS, or MegaSquirt? With the pricing you mentioned ($700) plus wiring and sensors, you can get any of the other ECUs.

I don't think the question was originally directed at me, but a turning point for me very recently is I was over at AutoWave in HB (big NSX tuner) getting a service done on my MDX and a guy was working on his Miata in the parking lot trying to figure it all out. He walked in to the lobby holding a MS PnP unit and said that he was waiting on a replacement before he could get the car out of their hair. Turns out he brought it to them for tuning but fuel was literally pouring out of his exhaust pipe and it ended up being a faulty injector driver in the MS unit. This is after he already went back and forth changing out a whole new set of injectors and misc. fueling components.

Just seeing the frustration on his face and the mess out in the parking lot was enough for me to steer clear of any potential for that happening to me.

I'm running an AEM v1 and if anything, might later change to EMS-4.

[RidgeRacer]

Oh and how did you get the trigger inputs? Looks like 4AGZE CAS but did you have to use a trigger wheel at the crank too? Where'd you find a 4AGZE CAS?

[ethergore2]

So I got a small update on the status of my car. It turns out AEM sold me the wrong coil driver for my car to run their pencil coils. So now I purchased some Toyota coils. I like how these will look better anyways since I can now get the Sam Q plate. I am sad that I wasted money though. Hopefully I can sell the pencil coils and get AEM to refund my coil driver since it was their fault. I doubt it though.

I was emailing back and forth with the guys at FSR following the progress of your build before I knew you were a member and posting about it here. What Toyota coils did you go with and do they have built-in ignitors? I was thinking about going with S2000/RSX COPs since those have built-in ignitors for a much cleaner look.

Sam Q plate?

I got the 1NZ coils since they don't need a spacer. They include the igniter so you can wire straight from EMS without a coil driver.

[ethergore2]

With all the annoyance and unavailable tech support you mentioned, why did you choose AEM EMS 4 instead of haltech, TeC, SDS, or MegaSquirt? With the pricing you mentioned ($700) plus wiring and sensors, you can get any of the other ECUs.

I originally chose AEM because they are local here in SoCal. Many tuners use their products. Most of the annoyances have come from not many people using AEM on a 16 valve 4ag with ITBs. The most difficult part was getting the trigger to work which, now that I know what needs to be done, is actually simple. I never said that AEM customer support was unavailable but they weren't that helpful.

The good news is they have a very good tech support guy named Beau now who has been very helpful. We have made some good progress and I should be able to finish up this build thread soon. Ie, about a month or two since my tuner is on vacation.

[ethergore2]

With all the annoyance and unavailable tech support you mentioned, why did you choose AEM EMS 4 instead of haltech, TeC, SDS, or MegaSquirt? With the pricing you mentioned ($700) plus wiring and sensors, you can get any of the other ECUs.

I don't think the question was originally directed at me, but a turning point for me very recently is I was over at AutoWave in HB (big NSX tuner) getting a service done on my MDX and a guy was working on his Miata in the parking lot trying to figure it all out. He walked in to the lobby holding a MS PnP unit and said that he was waiting on a replacement before he could get the car out of their hair. Turns out he brought it to them for tuning but fuel was literally pouring out of his exhaust pipe and it ended up being a faulty injector driver in the MS unit. This is after he already went back and forth changing out a whole new set of injectors and misc. fueling components.

Just seeing the frustration on his face and the mess out in the parking lot was enough for me to steer clear of any potential for that happening to me.

I'm running an AEM v1 and if anything, might later change to EMS-4.

I'm with you ridge racer. Megasquirt is for people who really understand stand alone systems.

[ethergore2]

Oh and how did you get the trigger inputs? Looks like 4AGZE CAS but did you have to use a trigger wheel at the crank too? Where'd you find a 4AGZE CAS?

No. We used the CAS for cam and crank position.

[Ridge Racer]

Oh and how did you get the trigger inputs? Looks like 4AGZE CAS but did you have to use a trigger wheel at the crank too? Where'd you find a 4AGZE CAS?

No. We used the CAS for cam and crank position.

You know how some just use the distributor as a CAS? Does the stock 16v dist. have all the same pickups to use like you did with the CAS? I haven't looked myself, but I've seen pictures showing both a 4 tooth and 24 tooth wheel inside. I think people grind down 3 of the 4 teeth on the smaller gear.


was having to convert from falling edge to rising edge an AEM nuance or was it an error associated with the incorrect ignitor?

[Garage7RP]

With all the annoyance and unavailable tech support you mentioned, why did you choose AEM EMS 4 instead of haltech, TeC, SDS, or MegaSquirt? With the pricing you mentioned ($700) plus wiring and sensors, you can get any of the other ECUs.

I originally chose AEM because they are local here in SoCal. Many tuners use their products. Most of the annoyances have come from not many people using AEM on a 16 valve 4ag with ITBs. The most difficult part was getting the trigger to work which, now that I know what needs to be done, is actually simple. I never said that AEM customer support was unavailable but they weren't that helpful.

The good news is they have a very good tech support guy named Beau now who has been very helpful. We have made some good progress and I should be able to finish up this build thread soon. Ie, about a month or two since my tuner is on vacation.

Thank you for the information. I asked because I am looking for a good standalone for my new 16V engine using TRD individual throttles using the following criteria of quality, tuneability and user-friendliness, cost, excellent support and customer service. I was stuck between Haltech and TeC but since this thread I decided to look into AEM because they are available locally. Like you mentioned, I do not see most people use AEM on their A series motors.

Since you already know the problem, how much would be the total cost of equipment without counting the wrong parts to run AEM (AEM EMS 4 + flying lead kit + injectors + 1NZ COP + 4AGE CAS + other necessary sensors = ?

[ethergore2]

Oh and how did you get the trigger inputs? Looks like 4AGZE CAS but did you have to use a trigger wheel at the crank too? Where'd you find a 4AGZE CAS?

No. We used the CAS for cam and crank position.

You know how some just use the distributor as a CAS? Does the stock 16v dist. have all the same pickups to use like you did with the CAS? I haven't looked myself, but I've seen pictures showing both a 4 tooth and 24 tooth wheel inside. I think people grind down 3 of the 4 teeth on the smaller gear.


was having to convert from falling edge to rising edge an AEM nuance or was it an error associated with the incorrect ignitor?

Yes. I think you are correct. I'm sure someone else can confirm since I'm not positive. I just like the clean look of a CAS. What I wish was that there was a way to get AEM's engine position module to work on a 4AG. Then I'd have all AEM sensors.

[ethergore2]

With all the annoyance and unavailable tech support you mentioned, why did you choose AEM EMS 4 instead of haltech, TeC, SDS, or MegaSquirt? With the pricing you mentioned ($700) plus wiring and sensors, you can get any of the other ECUs.

I originally chose AEM because they are local here in SoCal. Many tuners use their products. Most of the annoyances have come from not many people using AEM on a 16 valve 4ag with ITBs. The most difficult part was getting the trigger to work which, now that I know what needs to be done, is actually simple. I never said that AEM customer support was unavailable but they weren't that helpful.

The good news is they have a very good tech support guy named Beau now who has been very helpful. We have made some good progress and I should be able to finish up this build thread soon. Ie, about a month or two since my tuner is on vacation.

Thank you for the information. I asked because I am looking for a good standalone for my new 16V engine using TRD individual throttles using the following criteria of quality, tuneability and user-friendliness, cost, excellent support and customer service. I was stuck between Haltech and TeC but since this thread I decided to look into AEM because they are available locally. Like you mentioned, I do not see most people use AEM on their A series motors.

Since you already know the problem, how much would be the total cost of equipment without counting the wrong parts to run AEM (AEM EMS 4 + flying lead kit + injectors + 1NZ COP + 4AGE CAS + other necessary sensors = ?

Lets see what I can remember:

I got the EMS, flying lead harness, map sensor, air temp sensor, and water temp sensor for $1350. If I was smart and didn't insist on all AEM sensors I could have paid $900 for the EMS and flying lead and found the sensors in the junk yard for cheap.

The 1NZ coils were $125

The CAS was like $90 used

I found some 225 cc injectors for free and got them cleaned by RC for $100.

I had to pay to have my water neck re-drilled to accept the AEM threads- $50

All kinds of wiring supplies including expensive ratcheting crimpers must be totaling $300 by now.

So for parts alone what is that? $2015

The most expensive part was getting someone to wire everything since I can't do it myself. I'm getting close to 3k for that since I'm paying by the hour. If you had my project as a guide or if you were lucky enough you could probably pay the guy who did my wiring to make you a harness and only have to pay for tuning.

Like you are thinking, AEM is good in theory but carrying out this project with few references was expensive. Now that someone (me) has almost finished, it should be much simpler.

I say you wait for me to finish and see how it turns out. If it works, I think it's the next cheapest way to go after mega squirt.

[typexd]

Just curious about what kind of insulation you are using for your harness and where you picked it up from? In the process of redoing both my chassis harness and my engine harness and I am looking for something a bit more protective and will update the look of the wiring a little bit. Any pros or cons that you have noticed with that particular product?

[ethergore2]

Just curious about what kind of insulation you are using for your harness and where you picked it up from? In the process of redoing both my chassis harness and my engine harness and I am looking for something a bit more protective and will update the look of the wiring a little bit. Any pros or cons that you have noticed with that particular product?

I'm using expandable tubing. I'm not sure how well it does yet since the car is not driving. It's been fairly easy to work with and I think it looks great. I can't recall the temp rating on it but since its got holes in it I'm not relying in it doing much other than hold wires together. You should be able to find it at any electronics store.

[totta crolla]

I have read with interest this thread on using an AEM ems. I too have just installed an AEM and in my case it is a unit originally designed to run a Mitsubishi Evo 8. I have made a jumper harness to go between the AE86 loom and the AEM and I'm using all of the original sensors including the distributor, although I had to modify it slightly to make it work the cam sensor input.
Everything works and the engine is running ok but I could really use some kind of base fuel map.
Do you know of anywhere that I could download a base map from ?

[ethergore2]

I have read with interest this thread on using an AEM ems. I too have just installed an AEM and in my case it is a unit originally designed to run a Mitsubishi Evo 8. I have made a jumper harness to go between the AE86 loom and the AEM and I'm using all of the original sensors including the distributor, although I had to modify it slightly to make it work the cam sensor input.
Everything works and the engine is running ok but I could really use some kind of base fuel map.
Do you know of anywhere that I could download a base map from ?

I don't have one to give you at the moment since mine isn't done. Is your setup even similar? If your car is running that might be as close as my map may gets you anyways.

[Ridge Racer]

http://www.tweakdperformance.com/online ... ucts_id=33

This place is a very cool recent find I made. They'll do a custom harness for whatever engine setup (COPs, ITB, etc.) and ecu

[ethergore2]

So its been forever since I have added to this thread but my build continues. To make a long story short the AEM EMS-4 never worked out. The signal that the 4agze CAS puts out is too dirty for this "simpler" ecu. Some of their higher end ecus have filtering to help get meaningful data from the CAS but not this one. I could have kept the EMS-4 and used a crank mounted trigger wheel but I really wanted to keep the CAS. In order to do this I ended up switching ECUs and using VEMS to run my car. My choice for this ecu was due to convenience since Grant, the guy helping me with wiring, was comfortable with this setup. In addition, Grant is friends with one of the developers of VEMS so we had some good help when needed.

To get the trigger working even on the VEMS we had to add some filtering to clean up the system. With that said we could have possibly got this to work with the AEM but I doubt it. According to their tech support, the EMS-4 really wants to see the more modern square wave versus the older sinusoidal (curved) wave that the 4agze CAS puts out. Another benefit to the VEMS is that is can use rising edge or falling edge signal so there is no need to rewire the CAS.

Despite getting a good trigger signal we still had lots of trouble getting a good setup. We originally tried to run speed density instead of alpha N due to its ease of setup and adaptability to small changes if needed. We tried really hard to get this to work and spent a lot of time trying to change things to get it to run right. Ultimately there is no real good way to get a motor with large cams and ITBs to run on speed density. MegaSquirt comes close by using their ITB mode which is a blend of Alpha N and Speed density and, in retrospect, would be my recommendation to anyone running ITBs with large cams.

A little more about speed density with this setup is that it could work if there was a software developed to run it on MegaSquirt or any other system. I'm writing it here because no one else would listen to me on the Vems site and MegaSquirt already has their own method and I am not a member of their forum. The problem with running speed density with large cams and ITBs is the fact that it cannot compensate for barometric (altitude) change. There is barometric correction on vems and MegaSquirt but it is designed to be used with Alpha N. What is does is add a fixed amount of additional fuel based on the altitude change. It basically works exactly like warmup enrichment. With speed density what is needed is a correction to load settings. As the car increases in altitude the map value decreases. This places you in a lower load cell row and causes you to run lean, even with a small change in altitude (like 2 kpa). A simple fix would be to correct this value as the kpa drops. This would keep you in the correct load/rpm cells and the car would run correctly. This is proven to work as you correct the base kpa in ecu calibrations.

So when my car was tuned well at sea level, it would run great at sea level. As soon as I got the car back to my house (4 kpa higher than sea level) the car would be lean to the point it could not run. This was a big shock as I found this out taking it off the trailer after a long drive. For a temporary fix I simply added 4 kpa to the calibration of the sensor. This put the car back into the correct load cell and the car ran perfect. This shows that a load based baro correction could have cured the problem. Theoretically there would still need to be additional fuel enrichment on top of this but that could be done along with the load correction.

Again, I know this may not be the correct audience for this information but I am hoping those familiar with tuning can understand and have some input to my idea. Maybe someone familiar with MegaSquirt will even attempt this which would be awesome.

Since I could not get speed density to work we ended up switching to Alpha N. We switched the settings and the car fired right up from the old speed density settings. From there we used auto tune and backed off the timing. At that point the car basically tuned itself. Baro correction is still needed for altitude change but it works well. At this point my car is scheduled to go to the dyno this Saturday. That is why I was motivated to post again. Sorry for the long winded post but it really helps me keep motivated on a project that has been going on this long. At times I really wanted to give up but when I look back I am amazed about how much I have learned about fuel management systems.

I will put up some dyno numbers after this Saturday if everything goes to plan. Ill also add some video too.

With that said, who can guess what my HP/Tq will be? To jog your memory the motor is:
High comp
Decked block/head
TRD thin head gasket
Most badass headers (YSPL) (K1 Motors)
Silvertop ITBs with ITG filter
Crower 280 degree cams
3 angle valve job
.5 over pistons
Light weight drive train (fly and drive shaft)

I'm hoping 150 to the wheel minimum. Your thoughts?

[Garage7RP]

My guess is approx. 170 HP and 110 TQ.

[ethergore2]

Just got home. HP wasn't as high as I hoped but the car feels great. Here's the sheet. I'll put up some video once I get a chance to chop it down to a smaller size.

[ethergore2]

Forgot I never added my dyno video.
https://goo.gl/photos/G4EEoh1muzg9rWaS7