yoshi - 4agte question

[jinx]

I been meaning to ask, but never did I guess.
How come you don't offer turbo kits for the ae86 4age ? Can't think of a single more effective mod

like me.....
You're a turbo head (we call 'em turbo-ass around here - lol)
unlike me....
You about as diehard 4AG as they come
You're commited to servicing/selling to the 4AG community
You're as smart as I've seen

u know.... like "build it and they will come". Use your own guinea pig
dynoing at each stage
We had someone doing exactly that for our starions. He got solid traction, but home/personal problems took him down. Shame
I had contemplated it at one time, but other projects stole that 'spare' time quickly
You seem like the perfect man for the job

say..... a turbo + manifold + fmu (like the basic greddy miata kit)
optional; fuel pump + fmic & pipes + clutch
then step up to a mbc + MSD btm + boost gauge + wideband

or go straight to injectors and basic megasquirt(already loaded)
then cams.... then bottom end.... and so on

[yoshimitsuspeed]

The two big things are demand and budget.

I sell about three bottom mount manifolds a year. I keep thinking about taking them off the site because I make them so rarely every one is kind of a learning process all over again and a bit of a PITA but instead I just bumped the price up a bit.
If I could make a run of 5 of these it would take a lot less time and I could sell them for a lot less but it would take me two years to sell them so it's not worth the initial investment.
I have made one AE86 top mount mani for a customer and did make a jig so I could reproduce it and I put pics out there and again have gotten so little interest that I haven't bothered to put it on my website as a shelf part.
A turbo kit would take many hours and probably a couple grand to develop. I expect it would take several years just to recoup the investment of development.

The other factor is money. Being a pretty new business and that my primary source of income is the A series community I don't have a ton of money to throw around. I have to be very selective on the projects that I choose and when I invest in a big project at this point it has to be the one that I think will make me the most money, not the one I am most passionate about.

[jinx]

I'd think the manifold is the starting point.
I expect you won't see too many hits for a hand made custom job. That's reserved for ballers
Yeah, settin up every time would be a pita. That's where the chinese come in
CXracing use to make a 4AGE cast manifold for a T25 ~$150 iirc. They must have 'guessed' at the flange angle, as the turbo hit the valve cover. One club 4ag member detailing his build, notified them, and they corrected the fault in what seemed like no time.
Feedback resulted in a low dollar option that 'worked'. Wasn't perfected, but could have just as easily been.
Seen folks get chinese made tubulars, same way.
Common T25 or T3 footprint would cover most power levels, using readily available low cost turbos
You can offer a simple oe style prebent oil feed supply line & a drain.... oil pan moded with nipple(on exchage)
Bolt-in fmic with piping etc.
Would be a cinch with your skill level...... just thinkin

[jinx]

I still own a perfectly running virgin GTS. Somewhere down the road, I'll challenge myself to a low budget turbo system
....just what the wimpy turd needs

[yoshimitsuspeed]

I think I have found a source for a reasonably decent quality manifold that is manufactured overseas.
I can also get CXracing stuff for a small discount. Not enough to get it to a customer much cheaper but enough that I can make a couple bucks on the deal if you go through me.
I haven't had enough interest to actively push their stuff on my website.
I did just find someone to help me add content to my site so I am hoping to add a lot more stuff this winter. Being that I do all my own web design and data entry I am very limited on how much time I have to add products.
I do always tell people to ask me if I can get things though. What's on my site is probably less than 1% of what I can get.

On the subject of the manifold and the oil drain. The problem is that in the 4AGE world everyone wants to run a different turbo. I offer my mani in three of the four most common flanges and still more often than not I have someone request something different. Same with the oil line. Many turbos are different so i could make a shelf style that worked with say most T25s and then the next 5 customers who asked for an oil drain would naturally not have a T25.
I do offer a service to add an oil drain and bung. If I have the turbo here I can make it off of mine. Otherwise you can send in your turbo so I can make it off of that. Same for odd flange styles although that costs extra.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/store/turbo ... boing-4age

While I don't have a kit per say I always tell people that I can help them put together a kit. Really the mani, downpipe and oil drain are the big things that most people can't do on their own. Beyond that you just need to piece together basic parts like a piping kit, oil feed line, coolant lines, and intercooler.
I can make suggestions on all of the above and if I can't get it or if it's not cost effective for me to sell it can suggest where to look for it.

[jinx]

people will always want this turbo or that, thats why I mentioned the greddy miata kit.
What u see is what u got. Put boost under the hood of many.... sold well, then other outfits jumped on board with their version
I suspect 'most' would simply be happy with any basic decent entry level kit.
Knocking 2 seconds of et (acceleration potential) alone makes a tremendous difference in how the turd drives.
Grow tired/want more ? ....layout the upgrade stages

I got a few turbos I've been holdin onto, solely for that purpose. CA & SR T25, wrx td04, ford 2.3 T3, starion 12A, etc
Build a mani & downpipe for each... plumb em, test em, sell em

[yoshimitsuspeed]

In the 4A world it's more that 98% of the turbo guys will be running used turbos. They will pick something up for $150 to $250 at the junk yard or on ebay and will want to design their system around that. Some actually choose their turbo around what flange options I offer but most already have a turbo they want to use.
In three years I have probably made two manifolds for customers who had or were buying new turbos. Very few in this community want to spend more than the value of their car on one component for it.

[oldae82]

I have an ae82 that I'd like to bump the power on. I've been reading the post on turbos that you put up a year or so ago, along w/comments, particularly by jinx and jondee (I believe that's the first time I've seen him ASK a question.) Jinx referred to a project by neil8586, but I haven't been able to find that post or thread. I'm not trying for a ton of power, I'm not trying to make a race car. Probably 90% of the time the car would still be used for step and fetch or day trips. Occasional back road flings here in southwest Va. I'm not equipped to do major work or a lot of experimentation i.e. junkyard combos that take more theoretical knowledge than I have. I would like to have a drive-able car with a little more zip. I can see a light weight flywheel, cams, and pistons, if I have to. I'd rather not get into computer programming, altered intakes, modified exhausts, etc. if that's avoidable. Is a turbo the right response for the parameters I've laid out, and is there a collection of those parts you've made that I could assemble/install? Thanks. jm

I know w/turbo there will be intake and exhaust plumbing to do. I should ask first if there's room under the hood of a FWD for a turbo.

[jinx]

turbo makes a 'big' difference. Even a basic low boost system with a FMU.... performance gains far above "a little more zip".
Turbo has the high degree of difficulty to match unfortunately. Perhaps more than you can/want to dive into at the moment.

Looking at my FX16, its actually considerably easier to turbo than a AE86. Place the turbo over the tranny(with a support brace), to retain a full width radiator. Custom plumbing is a good bit more accessible too.

Shifting the torque curve upwards, is where the magic lies. How? Boost; turbo > gze > nitros > displacement > compression
Folks have claimed a bump in compression made a significant difference. You'd have to research results, then weigh if mods are worth it, or even possible for you (going that deep into engine mods vs a smallport or 10.3 block swap).
If you feel like you're running out of steam at higher rpms, then a pair of cams may be all you need, and within your capability.
Then there is always nitros oxide for that occasional blast
Enough info out there to research

Neil85ae86 turbo build info was waaaayyy back on the old forums. Dunno if it's still available

[jondee86]

I have just been cruising the interweb and looking at how some of the supercharger
manufacturerss/installers sell their kits. Basically, they offer to supply and/or install
a kit that does away with the need for the customer to know anything about engines
or the technicalities of performance enhancements. The sales pitch is invariably all
about the benefits... more power, more torque, better fuel economy etc.

This is a great strategy as it generates the desire for better performance in people
who don't have the knowledge to select or install systems... but who have the ability
to pay someone else to do the work. So the only decision the customer has to make
is... how much performance can I afford to buy ? And usually there are several choices
on offer such as the Stage 1 Kit, Stage 2 Kit and so on.

Now if I was to apply this kind of thinking to a turbo kit for the GTS, I would look at
going upmarket of the CX turbo kit. Use a new small turbo sized to work with a stock
TVIS engine and a solid steam pipe manifold. Put that together with EVERYTHING needed
to make the package a self-install for the mechanically minded, or an easy install for
any local speedshop.

Market it as giving (for example) 40% more power with no loss of driveability and
have a dyno chart to back it up. Of course, you would need the usual caveats about
engine condition, must be installed in accordance with included instructions, for
offroad use only, liability etc. Advertising such a kit acts as bait to bring in the guys
who want MORE It is not even necessary to have the kits on the shelf as the fine
print can include reference to a 4-6 week lead time.

Whether this strategy would generate any worthwhile business out of a pond containing
only GTS owners is debatable, but it could be extrapolated to include any car with a 4AGE
under the hood. Considering the amount of time and effort you put into counselling the
4AGE community on the benefits of adding a turbo, could be worth a punt

Cheers... jondee86

[yoshimitsuspeed]

I have an ae82 that I'd like to bump the power on. I've been reading the post on turbos that you put up a year or so ago, along w/comments, particularly by jinx and jondee (I believe that's the first time I've seen him ASK a question.) Jinx referred to a project by neil8586, but I haven't been able to find that post or thread. I'm not trying for a ton of power, I'm not trying to make a race car. Probably 90% of the time the car would still be used for step and fetch or day trips. Occasional back road flings here in southwest Va. I'm not equipped to do major work or a lot of experimentation i.e. junkyard combos that take more theoretical knowledge than I have. I would like to have a drive-able car with a little more zip. I can see a light weight flywheel, cams, and pistons, if I have to. I'd rather not get into computer programming, altered intakes, modified exhausts, etc. if that's avoidable. Is a turbo the right response for the parameters I've laid out, and is there a collection of those parts you've made that I could assemble/install? Thanks. jm

I know w/turbo there will be intake and exhaust plumbing to do. I should ask first if there's room under the hood of a FWD for a turbo.

I'm not as familiar with the FWDs but if you can fit a turbo in an AW11 engine bay you should be able to fit a turbo in any engine bay.
My bottom mount mani is designed for the AW11 but it should work on a FWD. It is designed to run the turbo with the compressor side on the drivers side as this makes a lot more sense on the AW11. It does tuck the turbo back as close to the motor as possible though so this would help with rad clearance.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

I have just been cruising the interweb and looking at how some of the supercharger
manufacturerss/installers sell their kits. Basically, they offer to supply and/or install
a kit that does away with the need for the customer to know anything about engines
or the technicalities of performance enhancements. The sales pitch is invariably all
about the benefits... more power, more torque, better fuel economy etc.

This is a great strategy as it generates the desire for better performance in people
who don't have the knowledge to select or install systems... but who have the ability
to pay someone else to do the work. So the only decision the customer has to make
is... how much performance can I afford to buy ? And usually there are several choices
on offer such as the Stage 1 Kit, Stage 2 Kit and so on.

Now if I was to apply this kind of thinking to a turbo kit for the GTS, I would look at
going upmarket of the CX turbo kit. Use a new small turbo sized to work with a stock
TVIS engine and a solid steam pipe manifold. Put that together with EVERYTHING needed
to make the package a self-install for the mechanically minded, or an easy install for
any local speedshop.

Market it as giving (for example) 40% more power with no loss of driveability and
have a dyno chart to back it up. Of course, you would need the usual caveats about
engine condition, must be installed in accordance with included instructions, for
offroad use only, liability etc. Advertising such a kit acts as bait to bring in the guys
who want MORE It is not even necessary to have the kits on the shelf as the fine
print can include reference to a 4-6 week lead time.

Whether this strategy would generate any worthwhile business out of a pond containing
only GTS owners is debatable, but it could be extrapolated to include any car with a 4AGE
under the hood. Considering the amount of time and effort you put into counselling the
4AGE community on the benefits of adding a turbo, could be worth a punt

Cheers... jondee86

There may be some unrealized market out there but I really doubt it. In the 3ish years I have been in business I have been involved in a small handful of discussions where people really wanted a plug and play kit. Maybe 5 or so.
In my experience about one in somewhere between 20 and 50 people who show interest in something actually follow through on it.


To make something completely plug and play I would guess it would take somewhere around 200-400 man hours. It would require making at least one or two complete setups which even if I went with used turbos would still cost quite a lot of money. So if I was into the project at let's just say 200 man hours and $1500 and say I made even $500 profit on each kit which is optimistic once you subtract overhead, consumables and all that. I still suspect it would be a couple years at the very least before I made my money back on R&D.
It's just not a worthwhile investment to returns ratio. Especially on a small business that doesn't technically turn a profit and has a very limited budget and not enough time to work with.

In reality it gets even more complicated.
I would most likely pick something like a GT2560 because it would fit most peoples needs and can be found both new and used from cars like SR20s. This would mean that people could run a lot of T25s and T28s with minimal mods but I still expect that more than half the customers would want to run something else that would require modification.
Then there are all the variables. To prove P&P capability with a different chassis, say an AE101 we would actually have to install it on one and see what unexpected hurdles we encountered.
Then people always seem to have special needs.
One person wants no oil cooler, another wants a stock oil cooler and someone else wants an aftermarket setup.
So you end up customizing the build to their setup anyway.

Then there is the aspect of liability.
There isn't a ton of difference between me selling you a kit in a big box and me advising you on what components will achieve the same goal. But as soon as I say that you can install this kit and achieve this goal then all of a sudden it's much easier to blame me if it doesn't meet your expectations or something goes wrong.
One customer coming after me threatening a lawsuit if I don't build and ship them a motor or some crap like that and Matrix Garage is done. It would be time to walk away, no questions asked.
So it's a lot easier for me to make suggestions and help someone put together a package that will achieve their goals while stressing that it's their build and their results are directly related to the health of their motor and the quality of their build and tune.

[jondee86]

Yes... it is fair to say that there is a big difference between the market for
supercharger kits for the new 86, and the market for turbo kits for the AE86.
Totally different demographic. One is ripe for bolt-on kits, and the other is
more of a DIY and low-budget market.

Therefore, making a big investment to produce kits for an already small
(and diminishing) market would not be a wise business decision. On the other
hand, producing replacement parts does have potential, as demonstrated by
T3 and many other parts suppliers. I guess the dividing line is at the point
where a product goes beyond being a simple bolt-on.

There are no easy answers !!!

Cheers... jondee86

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Yes... it is fair to say that there is a big difference between the market for
supercharger kits for the new 86, and the market for turbo kits for the AE86.
Totally different demographic. One is ripe for bolt-on kits, and the other is
more of a DIY and low-budget market.

Therefore, making a big investment to produce kits for an already small
(and diminishing) market would not be a wise business decision. On the other
hand, producing replacement parts does have potential, as demonstrated by
T3 and many other parts suppliers. I guess the dividing line is at the point
where a product goes beyond being a simple bolt-on.

There are no easy answers !!!

Cheers... jondee86

Yeah it's like I said up above. The goal now is to focus on projects that give me the best investment to returns ratio, then if I can start getting enough money going through then I could focus on something like a turbo kit as a pet project.
Unfortunately picking the 4A market isn't the best to begin with to try to get high returns but I can hope that also means there are less people making stuff for the platform hehe. Of course a lot of that is because the big companies like HKS have already dropped the 4A because there isn't enough money in it lol.
At some point I would be smart to jump on a new car coming out and get some good products out for it on the leading edge. That takes money too though especially since I would really need to buy one for R&D.
Then there is a big part of me that really wants to focus on other things for primary income and just keep the car stuff as a pet project altogether.
If I could make more money doing design, R&D for other companies and manufacturing type stuff that would be great too.

[oldae82]

Counsel me here. I have some familiarity with NA upgrades on small block Ford V-8s. I know that I can bore and upgrade pistons, and I know I can set some better cams in place, (a lot of posts here on cams for the NA 4age) and, with a lighter flywheel pick up a lot of the response I'm looking for. All this I can do without changing the engine compartment or the engine's ancillary parts. I have zero experience with blowers, be they turbo or super, and I have to rely on the experience of someone who's been there and done that to send me directly to the correct set up. Considering my valley of ignorance and lack of experience, is it foolish to look at blowers? Oh, and money is a factor. I'm sure you saw that coming.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Counsel me here. I have some familiarity with NA upgrades on small block Ford V-8s. I know that I can bore and upgrade pistons, and I know I can set some better cams in place, (a lot of posts here on cams for the NA 4age) and, with a lighter flywheel pick up a lot of the response I'm looking for. All this I can do without changing the engine compartment or the engine's ancillary parts. I have zero experience with blowers, be they turbo or super, and I have to rely on the experience of someone who's been there and done that to send me directly to the correct set up. Considering my valley of ignorance and lack of experience, is it foolish to look at blowers? Oh, and money is a factor. I'm sure you saw that coming.

The first thing to do is come up with a pretty solid ultimate power goal.
I consider the practical limit of an NA 4AGE to be about 140-160ish WHP. If you went 7A maybe a little higher but with more mid range power.
You could get an NA into this power range for a similar price as you could with a turbo on stock NA internals.
the upside is you end up with a fully rebuilt motor. The downside is that if you ever want more every hp becomes ridiculously more expensive.

Now if you went turbo on a stock motor it would have to be healthy to start. More power will root out any old or tired parts much faster.
If it was healthy you should be able to get to 150ish WHP pretty easy on the stock ECU with a wideband and a couple other things.
The upside is you are on a great path for upgrades with a good $/hp ratio. If your motor is very healthy you should be able to drive it like this for a long time with no issues. If it's kind of healthy you could start building a motor on the side in prep to replace it if/when it goes. Or if you complete the motor build you swap them out and have a spare.
If you ultimately want a lot of power you can run the NA motor while you build a badass motor and figure out engine management. Then when everything is together you swap it all in and at that point the sky is pretty much the limit.

So what is best for you definitely comes down to balancing between your budget and your goals.

[oldeskewltoy]

the single biggest problem with a stock 4AGE is the piston ring lands.... or more accurately the oiling ring land uses a large slit to evacuate oil from the ring.

This slit doesn't support the 2nd compression ring as well as a different designed oil land that uses round holes instead of the slit. The problem here is detonation, too much detonation and the piston ring land fails. When running a low cost turbo... sometimes you may get detonation because the stock ignition adds too much advance, which adds too much heat.... which leads to detonation.

Easiest solution... get a decent piston.... but don't forget to manage the ignition too......

[yoshimitsuspeed]

the single biggest problem with a stock 4AGE is the piston ring lands.... or more accurately the oiling ring land uses a large slit to evacuate oil from the ring.

This slit doesn't support the 2nd compression ring as well as a different designed oil land that uses round holes instead of the slit. The problem here is detonation, too much detonation and the piston ring land fails. When running a low cost turbo... sometimes you may get detonation because the stock ignition adds too much advance, which adds too much heat.... which leads to detonation.

Easiest solution... get a decent piston.... but don't forget to manage the ignition too......

The easiest solution is to make sure it doesn't detonate.
If you will be happy or at least for a while in the 150ish hp range it should just be a matter of having good AFR and detonation monitoring.
It's definitely best to replace the pistons but there is also something to be said about learning on a motor that doesn't have a lot of money into it. Detonation will take out forged pistons too. It will take a little more but any will start damaging them.

[jinx]

Squelch was at 307whp on his stock bluetop..... as well as a few old school turbo heads ~20-25psi. Piston can't be that bad

I'm wondering if the rings can butt ends, jamp up in the cyl and break off the lands...... under extremem conditions
Lots of veteran turbo builders focus on piston ring end gaps, and run more clearance for that specific reason.

I learned to turbocharge imports from a buddy, who usually got it done in a day. Charged $100 per cylinder
Either knocked up a steam pipe log, or moded the oe manifold.... bolt-on stock used $100-200 turbo(with int wastegate)
He plumbed the oil feed & return + turbo inlet/outlet. Add $100-150 to plumb fmic/pipes(u suppl em)
Majority used a FMU, or the SAFC II(+cheap used injectors)
Very much like the Greddy miata kit
I drove some of those cars before and after. Night and day acceleration difference
Admittedly, my favourite was lowly civics with the sohc D16 + 2.3 ford T3

I believe in the "build it and they will come" philiosophy.... as it sure worked for him.
One of our starion clubmembers have sold quite a bit of megasquirt setups, simply because he did. Excellent price & results
Everybody wins

[oldae82]

Counsel me here. I have some familiarity with NA upgrades on small block Ford V-8s. I know that I can bore and upgrade pistons, and I know I can set some better cams in place, (a lot of posts here on cams for the NA 4age) and, with a lighter flywheel pick up a lot of the response I'm looking for. All this I can do without changing the engine compartment or the engine's ancillary parts. I have zero experience with blowers, be they turbo or super, and I have to rely on the experience of someone who's been there and done that to send me directly to the correct set up. Considering my valley of ignorance and lack of experience, is it foolish to look at blowers? Oh, and money is a factor. I'm sure you saw that coming.

The first thing to do is come up with a pretty solid ultimate power goal.
I consider the practical limit of an NA 4AGE to be about 140-160ish WHP. If you went 7A maybe a little higher but with more mid range power.
You could get an NA into this power range for a similar price as you could with a turbo on stock NA internals.
the upside is you end up with a fully rebuilt motor. The downside is that if you ever want more every hp becomes ridiculously more expensive.

Now if you went turbo on a stock motor it would have to be healthy to start. More power will root out any old or tired parts much faster.
If it was healthy you should be able to get to 150ish WHP pretty easy on the stock ECU with a wideband and a couple other things.
The upside is you are on a great path for upgrades with a good $/hp ratio. If your motor is very healthy you should be able to drive it like this for a long time with no issues. If it's kind of healthy you could start building a motor on the side in prep to replace it if/when it goes. Or if you complete the motor build you swap them out and have a spare.
If you ultimately want a lot of power you can run the NA motor while you build a badass motor and figure out engine management. Then when everything is together you swap it all in and at that point the sky is pretty much the limit.

So what is best for you definitely comes down to balancing between your budget and your goals.

Summary: turbo on stock internals is about the same cost as NA upgrade, to about 150 whp. Beyond 150 turbo is the way to go. OK, considering the stock engine is about 110, I feel 150 is a good number. Top end speed is NOT this car's strong point. It's never going to be on the track. What I want is quicker acceleration and more power between say 3500 and 6000. On the twistys we have here I'm working 2nd and 3rd gears, and there's a real dead spot between the top of 2nd and the bottom of 3rd. I'd like for this power to be more seamless. Does that description make sense? The engine I have in the car now was rebuilt with rings, bearings and gaskets and has about 70K on the 'build. The bock and internals are bumping up on 150K. If in your opinion I can add a turbo to the engine as-is I'd probably go that route. If you feel I'm asking for problems if I don't go into the internals before I add a turbo, then I'd probably go NA.

What is a wideband, and what are 'a couple of other things'? Do you carry a turbo for this application, and if so, how much, and what other 'things' would I be expecting to add? Would a light weight flywheel make any sense with a turbo?

Thanks for your thoughts on this, and for the help of the rest of you thinking about it.

jm

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Counsel me here. I have some familiarity with NA upgrades on small block Ford V-8s. I know that I can bore and upgrade pistons, and I know I can set some better cams in place, (a lot of posts here on cams for the NA 4age) and, with a lighter flywheel pick up a lot of the response I'm looking for. All this I can do without changing the engine compartment or the engine's ancillary parts. I have zero experience with blowers, be they turbo or super, and I have to rely on the experience of someone who's been there and done that to send me directly to the correct set up. Considering my valley of ignorance and lack of experience, is it foolish to look at blowers? Oh, and money is a factor. I'm sure you saw that coming.

The first thing to do is come up with a pretty solid ultimate power goal.
I consider the practical limit of an NA 4AGE to be about 140-160ish WHP. If you went 7A maybe a little higher but with more mid range power.
You could get an NA into this power range for a similar price as you could with a turbo on stock NA internals.
the upside is you end up with a fully rebuilt motor. The downside is that if you ever want more every hp becomes ridiculously more expensive.

Now if you went turbo on a stock motor it would have to be healthy to start. More power will root out any old or tired parts much faster.
If it was healthy you should be able to get to 150ish WHP pretty easy on the stock ECU with a wideband and a couple other things.
The upside is you are on a great path for upgrades with a good $/hp ratio. If your motor is very healthy you should be able to drive it like this for a long time with no issues. If it's kind of healthy you could start building a motor on the side in prep to replace it if/when it goes. Or if you complete the motor build you swap them out and have a spare.
If you ultimately want a lot of power you can run the NA motor while you build a badass motor and figure out engine management. Then when everything is together you swap it all in and at that point the sky is pretty much the limit.

So what is best for you definitely comes down to balancing between your budget and your goals.

Summary: turbo on stock internals is about the same cost as NA upgrade, to about 150 whp. Beyond 150 turbo is the way to go. OK, considering the stock engine is about 110, I feel 150 is a good number. Top end speed is NOT this car's strong point. It's never going to be on the track. What I want is quicker acceleration and more power between say 3500 and 6000. On the twistys we have here I'm working 2nd and 3rd gears, and there's a real dead spot between the top of 2nd and the bottom of 3rd. I'd like for this power to be more seamless. Does that description make sense? The engine I have in the car now was rebuilt with rings, bearings and gaskets and has about 70K on the 'build. The bock and internals are bumping up on 150K. If in your opinion I can add a turbo to the engine as-is I'd probably go that route. If you feel I'm asking for problems if I don't go into the internals before I add a turbo, then I'd probably go NA.

What is a wideband, and what are 'a couple of other things'? Do you carry a turbo for this application, and if so, how much, and what other 'things' would I be expecting to add? Would a light weight flywheel make any sense with a turbo?

Thanks for your thoughts on this, and for the help of the rest of you thinking about it.

jm

A small turbo will actually give you more mid range and a broader power curve. You are going to have a hard time gaining much power at 3500 RPM NA. An NA build is really going to add power from like 5000-redline. With more compression you can gain a little below that but not a lot.
You can always add a turbo as is but the results will be completely dependent on the condition of your motor and your tune. If your tune is good and you don't go crazy with boost then you aren't going to significantly effect the life of the motor. However if a ring land, rod bearing or other component were just barely hanging on for dear life at the moment then slapping that turbo on could take it out faster.
If your motor was rebuilt to proper spec though it should be quite likely that you could rock it at low boost for quite some time without issue.

[oldae82]

Thanks. I have a strong, and so far justified, faith in the durability of the 4ag. On the basis of what you've said I'm willing to put a turbo on this block and see what happens. If it blows, I still have the turbo and two more engines waiting in the wings.

Can you give me specifics? The turbo for this application, the proper 'wideband', whatever that may be, and the 'few other things' mentioned but not named, earlier, and where they might be obtained?

jm

[oldae82]

i'm trying to spend some money, here. Is this the sort of stuff you have for sale?