4AGE 20V MANIFOLD GLOWING! HELP (SOLVED)

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Mehmaddict
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4AGE 20V MANIFOLD GLOWING! HELP (SOLVED)

Postby Mehmaddict » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:53 pm

Hello all, I'm new here and I need your help..
I'm restoring a levin 86..
Image

and swap 4age 20v engine.

Image

Using Standalone ECU,
IK20 Iridium Sparks,
VW Polo Gti Coil,

Everything working fine here but..

When I bought the engine all pulleys are missing so I decided to buy from T3 Crank Pulley.

When we start the engine, sound is fine but after 5 min later My headers GLOWINGG! Like F1 car.

I think my timing is wrong, When I tried to set pulley for 12:00, My first piston is not in dead position so decided to use on crank pulley's mark set to 10 degree, but again glowing manifold..

My afr is 13.3 13.0 bytheway weird, car runing perfectly but again headers glowing..

Please help me !

Thanks alot !
Last edited by Mehmaddict on Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4AGE 20V MANIFOLD GLOWING! HELP

Postby totta crolla » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:10 am

Most likely retarded ignition timing.
Possibly a cam timing issue, too much overlap at TDC and some of the inlet charge is going straight into the exhaust. If the actual engine timing (not ignition timing) is correct have a look at VVT settings.

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Re: 4AGE 20V MANIFOLD GLOWING! HELP

Postby Mehmaddict » Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:22 am

Thanks for reply.
We blocked the VVTi for the first run,
There is not notch for 4age 20v onT3 Crank pulley, the tell me about positions I tried them It s wrong When we painted at 12:00 position, TDC dont match.

So I want the try this, please tell me I'm doing right or not I dont want to blown the engine :( I'm noob.

For the finding TDC, Turn the crank , find 3 spots on cams and match them on engine and paint new notch on the crank pulley at 0 angle position.

Then start the engine setup for 10 degree for advance?

Is this right?
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Re: 4AGE 20V MANIFOLD GLOWING! HELP

Postby totta crolla » Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:45 am

Ok so TDC happens twice in the cycle, once when the valves overlap, exhaust closing and inlet opening and the second time on the compression stroke.
The compression stroke timing event is the one you are interested in for ignition timing.
I'm not familiar with camshaft markings on the 20v engine so I would be checking the timing by removing the cam covers and turning the engine over by hand, a wrench on the crank pulley.
You looking for both inlet and exhaust valves to be closed, the non pointy bit of the cam away from the follower (i.e not lifting the valve) and for the piston on the cylinder you are checking to be coming up the bore to the top, when the piston reaches the exact top you will be at TDC on the compression stroke and it is this point that the bottom pulley should be marked and referenced from.
This video should help and 29 seconds in is what you are looking for:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg0x4_mQd9M
Once you are absolutely sure you know where TDC is you can check the ignition timing using the reference mark.
How are you checking the ignition timing off of the individual coils ?

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Re: 4AGE 20V MANIFOLD GLOWING! HELP

Postby Mehmaddict » Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:58 am

Woav ! Thank you man, I will try this tonight.
Thanks for fast reply, you are rock.
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Re: 4AGE 20V MANIFOLD GLOWING! HELP

Postby Mehmaddict » Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:11 am

We can control Coils on ECU. The car is working perfect (looks) But problem is glowing...
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So in this position it is TDC right?
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Re: 4AGE 20V MANIFOLD GLOWING! HELP

Postby totta crolla » Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:55 am

Mehmaddict wrote:We can control Coils on ECU. The car is working perfect (looks) But problem is glowing...
Image

So in this position it is TDC right?


In theory it is right but your TDC mark is on the bottom pulley attached to the crankshaft and it is the ignition timing from the bottom pulley that is probably causing your problem. It is not a good idea to run the engine for too long with this particular issue as you can burn out the exhaust valves.
Should be ok to run it long enough to sort the timing though.
Which standalone ecu are you using ?

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Re: 4AGE 20V MANIFOLD GLOWING! HELP

Postby Mehmaddict » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:10 am

I'm using Beast. Turkish brand but same as VEMS.
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Re: 4AGE 20V MANIFOLD GLOWING! HELP

Postby Mehmaddict » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:12 am

My theory is: In tdc position paint new mark at 0 degree on Crank Pulley, that is what I have got.. :(
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Re: 4AGE 20V MANIFOLD GLOWING! HELP

Postby totta crolla » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:29 am

To be honest I can't remember if the engine is at compression TDC when the cams are aligned.
Ignoring the cam / crank relationship for a minute it is possible by using the ecu to advance the ignition timing by say 10°as a test.

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Re: 4AGE 20V MANIFOLD GLOWING! HELP

Postby Mehmaddict » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:49 am

I m not sure either but
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I think when cams matched engine is at tdc position ( If 0 degree means TDC)

We tried by using ECU whole day, nothing, still glowing... Because we dont know the advance settings, we are using notch for 16v i think.
Hate T3 Pulleys, If you dont point for 4age 20v then why do you sell for 20v? damn.
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Re: 4AGE 20V MANIFOLD GLOWING! HELP

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:59 am

Hmmmm.... have you confirmed that the piston is @ TDC when you are checking cam timing??

Crank key should be pointing straight up... but even that can still be off. Only way to KNOW TDC is with a piston stop, and a timing wheel.


There is also something wrong in the blacktop manual (I remember a thread about it) concerning cam timing - but this error was so extreme, I believe the engine doesn't run - so not likely your issue.
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Re: 4AGE 20V MANIFOLD GLOWING! HELP

Postby Mehmaddict » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:06 am

oldeskewltoy wrote:Hmmmm.... have you confirmed that the piston is @ TDC when you are checking cam timing??

Crank key should be pointing straight up... but even that can still be off. Only way to KNOW TDC is with a piston stop, and a timing wheel.


There is also something wrong in the blacktop manual (I remember a thread about it) concerning cam timing - but this error was so extreme, I believe the engine doesn't run - so not likely your issue.


Today I will check with screwdriver. Put screwdriver at first piston head, mark the cam notches. And check the TDC :D oldskool is the best :D

Oh really ?? things are getting harder and harder..
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Re: 4AGE 20V MANIFOLD GLOWING! HELP

Postby jondee86 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:32 pm

When you know for sure thst the #1 piston is at TDC on the compression stroke,
you need to make this mark (notch) on the crank pulley opposite zero on the scale...

Image

Then, with the mark at zero, you can check that the cam pulleys are set correctly
and set your ignition timing.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: 4AGE 20V MANIFOLD GLOWING! HELP

Postby jondee86 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:35 pm

And while I am thinking about it.... can ANYONE tell me from 100% their own personal
observation, where the AE111 (blacktop 20V) ignition timing sits at idle (when set to
8-12 deg BTDC with the engine in diagnostic mode), AFTER removing the jumper wire ???

What I am getting at is... does the timing jump up by 6 or 7 deg like a 16V does after the
jumper wire is pulled out, or does the 20V timing at idle just stay at 8-12 deg where it was
set without jumping to a higher value ???

Relevant to this thread as when using an aftermarket ECU the idle timing is set to the actual
total timing required, for example 16-17 deg on a 16V. Whereas with the factory ECU you
set the timing to 10 deg base timing in diagnostic and then when you pull the jumper wire
out, the ECU adds the extra 6 or 7 deg to bring timing up to the required total timing.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: 4AGE 20V MANIFOLD GLOWING! HELP

Postby Mehmaddict » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:16 pm

PROJECT UPDATE:

Turn crankshaft 4 time (to make sure) Match 3 points at cams.
We put a screwdriver on Piston1.
When at 3 marks matched position , screwdriver rising to max position.
Then paint 0 degree at crank pulley, set timing to 10 degree..

Glowing looks gone, tested 15 min, we can touch headers..

But our idle is too high 3000rpm I think it s about compression, we blocked to ISCV pipe set to idle 900.

To make sure I ll check again today...

For now thank you all guys!
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Re: 4AGE 20V MANIFOLD GLOWING! HELP

Postby totta crolla » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:35 am

At this point be very careful about putting the engine under load as the high idle suggests that the ecu initial timing is out, it is crucial that the ecu sees the same ignition timing as the engine is actually running. Refer to the ecu owners manual for help on how to set initial ignition timing.

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Re: 4AGE 20V MANIFOLD GLOWING! HELP

Postby Mehmaddict » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:44 am

So for understanding, We have to see same ignition timing engine and ecu?
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Re: 4AGE 20V MANIFOLD GLOWING! HELP

Postby totta crolla » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:05 am

Mehmaddict wrote:So for understanding, We have to see same ignition timing engine and ecu?


Yes correct but adjust the ecu to match the engine.

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Re: 4AGE 20V MANIFOLD GLOWING! HELP

Postby Mehmaddict » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:33 am

totta crolla wrote:
Mehmaddict wrote:So for understanding, We have to see same ignition timing engine and ecu?


Yes correct but adjust the ecu to match the engine.



Ok but sorry I'm newbie, how can i know my engine timing? Is it for 10?
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Re: 4AGE 20V MANIFOLD GLOWING! HELP

Postby jondee86 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:40 am

You can start with 10 deg before TDC at idle, that is a safe number. I have asked a question
above to see if the 20V BT can have more advance at idle... perhaps 15 deg ?? But until I get an
answer from someone who actually has checked with a light on their engine, I don't know the
answer.

Do you have an idle speed control valve ? The standard 20V ISCV is a 3-wire PWM rotary solenoid
and requires two PWM capable outputs on your ECU to drive it correctly. But you could also use a
Bosch 2-wire valve if you don't have the Toyota ISCV.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: 4AGE 20V MANIFOLD GLOWING! HELP

Postby totta crolla » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:02 am

Mehmaddict wrote:
totta crolla wrote:
Mehmaddict wrote:So for understanding, We have to see same ignition timing engine and ecu?


Yes correct but adjust the ecu to match the engine.



Ok but sorry I'm newbie, how can i know my engine timing? Is it for 10?


You will need a timing light, a small bright mark (white paint) on your bottom pulley at '0' (TDC) and a reference mark on the engine. See Johndee86 picture above ^
There are 1001 videos on Youtube explaining the procedure, take your pick ! You may have issues getting a signal from the individual coil pack but watch one of the videos first to understand why.
Last edited by totta crolla on Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 4AGE 20V MANIFOLD GLOWING! HELP

Postby Mehmaddict » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:03 am

totta crolla wrote:
Mehmaddict wrote:
totta crolla wrote:
Yes correct but adjust the ecu to match the engine.



Ok but sorry I'm newbie, how can i know my engine timing? Is it for 10?


You will need a timing light, a small bright mark (white paint) on your bottom pulley at '0' (TDC) and a reference mark on the engine. See post above.
There are 1001 videos on Youtube explaining the procedure, take your pick ! You may have issues getting a signal from the individual coil pack but watch one of the videos first to understand why.

ohh I see now!

Got it, Thank you, Project will be updated !
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Re: 4AGE 20V MANIFOLD GLOWING! HELP (SOLVED)

Postby Mehmaddict » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:35 pm

Hello and thank you all guys..

I set timing at 8 degree(Our fuel in Turkey is 95 Octane, car runs perfectly at 8 degree), after diagnostic mode we can see 15-16 degree (which is good).
Distribitor at advance position.(clockwise)

And ECU mode we setted 29 degree at trigger wheel setup.

Idle at 1100 rpm ( we will check vacuums)
Tested on road no glowing, Temp is good, Runs smoothly and perfectly.

Thank you all again, Espacially totta crolla ,I will make a video about it.
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Re: 4AGE 20V MANIFOLD GLOWING! HELP (SOLVED)

Postby totta crolla » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:59 am

My pleasure, glad it worked out for you.
Nice car and engine by the way !

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Re: 4AGE 20V MANIFOLD GLOWING! HELP (SOLVED)

Postby Mehmaddict » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:12 am

totta crolla wrote:My pleasure, glad it worked out for you.
Nice car and engine by the way !


^_^ Thanks!!
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