Hello guys,

i'm thinking on installing an ABS system into my Levin AE101..

does any1 here done this b4?

why?

Spend the money on a high level driving school instead. You will be better off.

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:Spend the money on a high level driving school instead. You will be better off.

and it will apply to every car you ever drive.

.

asjoseph wrote:... inputs, plus engineering cost, plus inherent risk, is grossly disproportionate to reward. What's become so wrong, so politically correct, so embarrassing, about a good old fashioned competition brake package, that will flat stop on a dime, and never let you down? "No, I'd rather have ABS?"

I don't get it.


Samuel, '88 4AGZE

How do an ABS system and a braking system with better heat dissipation compare?

Zissou wrote:

asjoseph wrote:... inputs, plus engineering cost, plus inherent risk, is grossly disproportionate to reward. What's become so wrong, so politically correct, so embarrassing, about a good old fashioned competition brake package, that will flat stop on a dime, and never let you down? "No, I'd rather have ABS?"

I don't get it.


Samuel, '88 4AGZE

How do an ABS system and a braking system with better heat dissipation compare?

I don't understand the better majority of asjoseph's posts so not surprised.
This is one of his more polite posts I have ever seen though so props on that.
It's probably about 10% of the people who even think they need a brake upgrade who actually do need one. For anyone else bigger brakes are a downgrade.
More rotating mass, more cost, more unsprung weight all to do the same thing the original brakes were fully capable of doing in the first place.

Mr.Fujiwara wrote:why?

If you have ever had the pleasure of having to make an emergency stop
on a wet road, and feeling your anal sphincter contract as with wheels locked
your car neither slows down nor changes direction... you will know why !!!

By preventing brake lockup, ABS allows you to brake as hard as possible
while still being able to maintain some steering control. That can be the
difference between hitting the car in front, or being able to swerve onto
the shoulder and avoid a collision. ABS is up there with airbags when it
comes to saving lives on the highway [/rant]

Back on topic I understand some models of the AE101/AE111 Corollas
were equipped with ABS, so it should not be too hard to transplant the
complete system from a donor vehicle. It will involve quite a bit of work,
but a quick google search shows that it has been done many times. Only
contemplate this conversion if you are an experienced mechanic. Brakes
are a critical safety system, and you should not mess with them unless
you have both the skills and the right equipment.

Cheers... jondee86

jondee86 wrote:

Mr.Fujiwara wrote:why?

If you have ever had the pleasure of having to make an emergency stop
on a wet road, and feeling your anal sphincter contract as with wheels locked
your car neither slows down nor changes direction... you will know why !!!

By preventing brake lockup, ABS allows you to brake as hard as possible
while still being able to maintain some steering control. That can be the
difference between hitting the car in front, or being able to swerve onto
the shoulder and avoid a collision. ABS is up there with airbags when it
comes to saving lives on the highway [/rant]

Threashold braking does as well and in most instances stops faster than ABS.

Even with ABS proper braking won't rely on it. You want to apply a proper threshold brake and if the ABS engages you back off just till it disengages. As soon as it does you continue reapplying your threshold brake.
ABS is 99.9% for bad drivers who don't know how to stop and don't pay attention while driving. The other .01% is for that crazy weather condition with very uneven traction conditions where ABS would actually stop considerably faster while maintaining some degree of steering control.

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:Threashold braking does as well and in most instances stops faster than ABS.

Yes... in theory. When you are just braking hard into a corner, or scrubbing off
speed in less than panic mode, threshold braking or cadence braking will do the job.
But when you find yourself on the wrong side of the road and suddenly staring death
right in the face, panic sets in

In a panic, basic instincts take over, and even experienced drivers can hit the pedal
hard enough to lock the brakes. This is the instant that ABS was designed for, and by
allowing the driver to swerve away from danger (another basic instinct), may possibly
save lives.

In an ideal world, the ABS should never activate, as we would all be braking in a
controlled manner and driving within our ability. But sh*t happens, usually when we
don't expect it. So ABS, airbags, seatbelts etc are there to protect us from the
other 99.9% that don't drive as carefully as we do

Cheers... jondee86

Cadence braking is prewar methodology that shouldn't even be mentioned any more and it is not even closely related to threshold braking.

This argument is much bigger than just ABS. This comes down to the fact that most of the world thinks that driving is a thing you do to get from point a to point b while talking on the phone, putting on makeup, daydreaming or whatever else.
On the other hand people like me believe that there should be much higher levels of training and requirements to get and keep a DL and that driving should be a place where you are trained to focus, pay attention and react.

With the proper training

basic instincts

can be programmed and trained to make the right action before you have time to think about what you are supposed to do. Yes there are still odd situations where ABS could give you some advantage but they are so few and far between that it would be of no concern.
The problem is that people aren't trained or expected to have this response training and therefore need automatic response systems to protect us from ourselves.

For many decades race car drivers have proven you can drive inches from another driver at 99% the limits of ability and traction while still having an amazingly low chance of something going wrong. Slow things down and spread them out to a normal traffic environment and the chances of something going wrong would be so close to zero it wouldn't even be worth an experiment. ABS, traction control, perimeter and distance sensors, lane sensors, etc all this fancy stuff is just to protect us from our own idiocy and DGAF ain't going to pay attention anyway lifestyles. Of course it means that drivers can give less a F and pay less attention creating a death spiral until computers can completely drive everyone who doesn't actually want to be out driving.

If you cannot control you car in ANY situation/weather condition without abs then you cannot ever be a good driver. A real driver does not need abs. Please learn how to control your car without abs. After you do so, please feel free to instal that crap onto your car, after you learn how to drive without it, you will then understand why abs is nothing but a hindrance to a real driver, and you will then want to remove that crap from your car. I guarantee it.

Its always a pleasure to hear from a person who never made a mistake or
an error of judgement while driving. Unfortunately, some of us are human
and do make mistakes... or get placed in danger by other people who make
mistakes... and maybe that crap might save our lives if we get caught up
in a nose to tail situation on a wet freeway... you know... just saying....

Cheers... jondee86

Not to jump into an argument, but i would like to chime in.
I am not an engineer, nor an experienced and aged racing driver.

I live in spokane washington. when i hear things like

"If you cannot control you car in ANY situation/weather condition without abs then you cannot ever be a good driver. A real driver does not need abs. Please learn how to control your car without abs."

Honestly, I can't imagine those who say these things, ever lived in a place such as spokane.

Here, we have winter for half of the year sometimes, which is significant. a lot of our old roads are made from brick/asphalt coated brick/concrete/half-effort repair jobs. when you mix ice, black ice, compact snow, uncompacted snow, dry asphalt, wet asphalt all on the same road at the same time,

can you really say that if you are a "real driver" then you can stop better than a car with 4 wheel ABS on a road as described above?
the only way i can see this happening is if you have 4 feet, 4 brake pedals, and incredible control.

yoshimituspeed said something much more realistic,

"there are still odd situations where ABS could give you some advantage but they are so few and far between that it would be of no concern. "

I think that in a lot of places this is true, but it is my opinion that you underestimate how often these "odd situations" occur in cities like spokane.

Please dont take this post the wrong way, I completely agree that there should be much more training involved in getting and keeping a DL. I am a delivery driver for a living right now, and experience idiots on the road for 6,000 miles a month.

I do not feel the need to implement ABS on my MR2, as its my autoX/fun fair weather car.
But i can not say i am not glad that i have 4 wheel ABS on my audi, the car i use for delivery + DD.

not sure if this is relevant, but when i lock up my MR2, i can lift my pedal and it wont disengage the brake, for a fraction of a second, then i can press it again. My audi does this much quicker with its abs, not sure if theres something just wrong with my mr2 though... and i assume it helps prevent flat spots as well....

Good comments man In an ideal world everyone would be obliged to
go thru Defensive Driving and Advanced Driver Training courses before
being allowed loose on the highways. But unfortunately, it is not an ideal
world, and there are a lot of people in charge of powerful cars that have
neither the experience or skills to safely control their vehicles under
all situations.

Tailgating, cutting corners, excessive speed in wet or slippery conditions,
failure to indicate, entering corners too fast, using a hand-held phone
while driving, aggressive overtaking... we all have seen these things on
the road, and perhaps been guilty of them ourselves

Having ABS in your car does not make you a better driver. A careful and
safe driver may never ever activate ABS. Having the ABS activate means
you either outdrove your ability, or you got caught up in an emergency
situation that was out of your control.

People who regularly activate the ABS during everyday driving are reducing
their margin for error, and may well have a higher accident rate than those
who never activate ABS. As indicated in previous posts, "threshold braking"
is a skill developed by experienced drivers to stop their car as quickly as
possible without locking the brakes. Unfortunately, this is against the
instincts of less experienced drivers, who equate stopping distance to how
hard they press the pedal... inevitably leading to lockup and loss of control
when they are caught up in an emergency situation.

My AE86 does not have ABS and I have raced it under both wet and dry
conditions... and locked up in the wet and left the track on more than one
occasion But I learned how to use the brakes, and what happens when
you lock them up. That is why I am happy to have ABS on my daily driver.

Cheers... jondee86