Use 4AFE / 20v 4AGE Oil Pan on RWD 7AC / 7AGE Build?

[yellowsnow4free]

Hey everyone,

I've been doing a bit of research on a RWD 7AC / 7AGE swap and I think I found some cool info.

In a RWD setup, using the 7AFE oil pan means you can't use the block to bellhousing braces that were originally on the RWD 4AC / 16v 4AGE.

Here's a picture of said braces for reference:



Now, these braces might not be critical on a 7AC / 7AGE swap, but the way I see it, Toyota included them for a reason, right?

I did some research and found that a 20v 4AGE oil pan will bolt up to the 7AFE block. I also found out that the 4AFE oil pan is the same as a 20v 4AGE oil pan.

Most people seem to use the 7AFE oil pan on a 20v 4AGE, but why not do it the opposite way? Assuming the 4AFE / 20v 4AGE oil pan clears the 7AFE crankshaft, that is (I don't have the parts to confirm or deny this).

Here's a picture of a 20v 4AGE going into a RWD application; note the bellhousing braces:



Only 1 bolt hole, but it looks like they'll work.

So what does this mean?

It looks like if you use a 4AFE / 20v 4AGE oil pan on a 7AC / 7AGE build, you can use the original RWD 4AC / 4AGE block to bellhousing braces (albeit only 1 out of 2 holes on the block side).

I'm not sure on the oil pan capacities, but I'm guessing the 7AFE one is larger than the 4AFE. Not sure if that'll be a problem or not. If it isn't, this might be a cool way to retain the block to bellhousing braces / have a "stealth" 7AC / 7AGE build

I guess another option would be to modify the upper 7AFE oil pan to allow the braces to be used.

MRP offers a 5mm spacer so that you can use a 4AGE oil pan on a 7AFE. The spacer is so the windage tray will clear, and it lowers the oil pan, windage tray, and oil pump pickup by 5mm. I guess that'll increase the oil volume a little, but probably not to the extent the 7AFE pan would:

http://www.mrpltd.co.nz/product/279/7a-sump-spacer.html

http://www.toymods.org.au/forums/threads/80024-GZE-Ancillaries-on-7A-block

Some oil capacity numbers for reference:

Engine - (with filter, no filter, dry)
20v BT - (3.2qt, 3qt, 3.7qt)
20v ST - (3.2qt, 3qt, 3.7qt)
4AFE - (3.2qt, 3qt, ?)
7AFE - (3.9qt, 3.7qt, ?)
4AC - (3.5qt, 3.2qt, ?)
4AGE - (3.9qt, 3.6qt, ?)

Looking at the capacities, I might've answered my own question Might not be a good idea to build a 7AC / 7AGE and fit it with a smaller oil pan, just because it isn't worth risking oil starvation.

But anyway, I still think the info is interesting, and I'm curious to hear feedback.

This is all hypothetical, so feel free to discuss

[Rogue-AE95]

Correction, the 4A-FE oil pan in question would be the AE101 ('93-'97) oil pan. The AE92 (except the All-Trac / 4WD) oil pans are rectangular. No notch / cut-out.

Edit: I wonder if the 16v oil capacity is higher due to the oil cooler? No oil cooler for a 20v.

[yellowsnow4free]

Correction, the 4A-FE oil pan in question would be the AE101 ('93-'97) oil pan. The AE92 (except the All-Trac / 4WD) oil pans are rectangular. No notch / cut-out.

Edit: I wonder if the 16v oil capacity is higher due to the oil cooler? No oil cooler for a 20v.

Thanks for the reply

Yeah, I'm referring to any A series oil pan with a notch / cut-out in it.

I guess I'm just trying to figure out if there will be any problems using said oil pan on a 7A* build, instead of using the 7AFE pan. I guess the first step would be to measure the capacities of each oil pan, but I don't have either in my possession, so I can't

[yellowsnow4free]

A little more digging:

MRP 7A to 20v 4A Sump Adapter (Battle Garage):
http://shop.battlegarage-rs.com/products/mrp-7a-to-20v-4a-sump-adapter
"Builders in Japan use the Tec-Arts version of this product on their 7AG builds"

Tec-Arts 7AGE Oil Pan Spacer:
http://www.tecarts.com/catalog/7ag.html

http://www.toymods.org.au/forums/threads/83788-MRP-7A-Oil-Pan
"[The 7A] stroke is longer so it does require our crank spacer (5mm thick spacer) so the rods clear the windage tray. You could mod the windage tray so it fits without the spacer."

MRP uses their spacer on their 400+ HP 7AGTE. Doing some maths, 5mm shouldn't add much oil volume, right? That would make me think there aren't any oil starvation issues using the 20v oil pan on a 7AGE.

Still open to comments though

[sirdeuce]

My main concern would not be capacity, but clearance. Bolt the later, notched pan on and see if the rotating assembly and pan have contact issues. Maybe even do the clay thing to check available clearance. As for block braces, they took issue and built the pan with sufficient stiffness to not need them. The 7AFE pan also looks like it would add a little stiffness to the block, not like a girdle would, but some. Personally, I'd use the 7AFE pan, The aluminum would transfer more heat from the block and the deeper set pan should keep the oil on the pick-up. Might even be easier to add baffles or even just a plate to restrict oil to the lower pan.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

My main concern would not be capacity, but clearance. Bolt the later, notched pan on and see if the rotating assembly and pan have contact issues. Maybe even do the clay thing to check available clearance. As for block braces, they took issue and built the pan with sufficient stiffness to not need them. The 7AFE pan also looks like it would add a little stiffness to the block, not like a girdle would, but some. Personally, I'd use the 7AFE pan, The aluminum would transfer more heat from the block and the deeper set pan should keep the oil on the pick-up. Might even be easier to add baffles or even just a plate to restrict oil to the lower pan.

The only problem with the 7A pan is that the bellhousing bolt holes won't line up with the t50 trans. to get the possible strength gain of the pan being bolted to the block you would need to cut the bellhousing flange portion of the 7A pan and weld on a new flange that would line up with the T50 holes.
I was looking into doing this for a friend but I think he decided it would be cost prohibitive. I could do it pretty easy but it would probably cost $300 or so in the end.

[yellowsnow4free]

Thanks for the replies everyone; I appreciate the input

sirdeuce,

It sounds like the point of the MRP adapter is to get the windage tray to fit with the 7AFE crank. I don't have the parts in front of me to confirm, but it doesn't sound like the crank will have any problem fitting the 20v oil pan without the 20v windage tray. In the Toymods link above MRP also said you can modify the windage tray to work without the spacer, which makes me think crank to oil pan clearance isn't an issue.

yoshimitsuspeed,

I too think the braces on the 7AFE oil pan should be utilized in a 7AGE build. However, like you said, it seems like this can't be done without custom work.

I'm just piecing this together with information and pictures I found online, but it sounds like this combo will work:

7AFE block + 4AC / 4AGE bellhousing braces + 4AFE / 20v 4AGE oil pan + T50 bellhousing

Which wouldn't require any custom work (unless you want to use a 20v 4AGE windage tray).

I guess the real question isn't whether or not the setup will bolt together, but will there be any oil capacity issues using the 4AFE / 20v 4AGE oil pan on a 7AGE build? And the best way to answer that would be to measure the volume of each, I assume.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

yoshimitsuspeed,

I too think the braces on the 7AFE oil pan should be utilized in a 7AGE build. However, like you said, it seems like this can't be done without custom work.

Yeah here is the 7A pan on a T50 bellhousing. You would definitely need to add material to make it bolt up.
The red circles are where the bolt holes are. The X is an alignment dowel hole.
I don't have any 4AF/C stuff so I can't help you there.
I really doubt there would be an issue with oil volume but yeah you could measure them.

[yellowsnow4free]

Yeah here is the 7A pan on a T50 bellhousing. You would definitely need to add material to make it bolt up.
The red circles are where the bolt holes are. The X is an alignment dowel hole.
I don't have any 4AF/C stuff so I can't help you there.
I really doubt there would be an issue with oil volume but yeah you could measure them.

Thanks for the pic! That helps me visualize the problem.

If I ever have both oil pans I'd like to measure them, but seeing as people have been using very thin spacers and running 4AFE / 20v 4AGE oil pans, I'm thinking capacity isn't an issue.

If oil capacity is fine, the only "issue" still remaining is that in the 20v pic in my original post, the block to bellhousing braces only use 1 out of 2 bolts on the block side. I'm thinking there are enough RWD 20v builds around (idk if they utilize the braces or chuck them) that it's probably fine, but who knows.

[corolla_alan]

Could you just remove the flange from the upper part of the sump? And then use the normal brackets and inspection plate?