4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

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4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby alltracfreak » Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:38 am

Hey guys a couple months ago i talked to some of you about a build i plan on doing and i think i know what i want to do now.
Let me start off by saying that this build was influenced by a fellow who turboed his completely factory 203k miles 91 3rib 4afe and made 190whp 177ft lb torque at 12psi with a simple Apexi SAFC piggyback unit.

Now my plan is to purchase a 95 7rib 4afe (which in my opinion is far superior to the 91 3rib 4afe in more ways than one)
Install ARP main bolts and either use gze rods with ARP bolts or an aftermarket set with aftermarket 9.6:1 ccompression pistons. And the reason i plan on using that compression ratio is for one i would make more hp per psi amd it would help when not on boost, also correct me if im wrong if i decided to go with a GE head later down the road they would leave me at 9.0:1 compression.

As for the head it will be ported, polished and the intake manifold and head would be gasket matched to each other. I will be using GE valve springs with the factory FE valves and retainers. The valves will have a 5angle valve job done. And custom cams. I would like power untill about 75- 8k rpm so what specs would you recommend???

My goal is 280whp on the factory transmission. Then later on get the ae92 GZE transmission and push the FE head as far as i can go. So what does every body think???

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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby jmaz87 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:13 am

Umm I'm not bashing at all because i boosted a stock 4AFE for like 3 years and it was a blast :)
But...

why are you using an FE head when your investing so much time and money???

i have the same size turbo on my fully built 16v 7AGTE as i did on my 4AFTE and it can't even be compared... granted the 7A is on standalone but a WOT pull is a WOT pull and for a turbo application ESPECIALLY PORTED!!! A GE head will outflow an FE head all day the ports are much much larger...

hell oldeskeweltoy told me if i just swapped to the 2nd gen FE head i'd probably net at least 20 if not 30 hp, boosted.

so SPEAKING FROM EXPERIENCE 4afe's are fun but only on a budget otherwise your only holding yourself back. my stock 4afe still runs great btw only recently took turbo stuff off for another build and it made something around 190 @around 14psi with no tune on a baby GT17. they are stout but i like revving to 8500 and still having that 1.9L grunt where i need it :)
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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:19 am

I totally agree with jmaz.
If the 4AFE would be significantly cheaper, faster or easier I'd say go for it.
If you were looking for an extra 50 HP I'd probably say go for it.
By the time you get to 280 WHP you will have likely spent more money than you would have starting out with a GE head.
With the GE head you also have a lot more aftermarket support. Your options for cams will be greater and price will probably be cheaper. Around 240 WHP on the 4AGE cams will start to help a lot in your quest for more power. I'm going to assume the FE will benefit from them as soon if not sooner.

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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby alltracfreak » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:34 am

I completely understand that the Ge head is a superior design. The reason the bottom is being built is for a GE head later down the road when i go for 400hp. The reason im going FE head is down time and cost. I can build the motor, rip out my existing 4afe and drop in my fresh build and get it running same day, the slap on a turbo kit later, witht he ge it would cost around the same to build the actual motor but the id have to pay extra for the wiring and ecu. And i would like to see how much power i can get out if the FE head. The main reason i dont go with the GE head off the jump is because i dont know how to do the wiring my self and dont want pay 500 to have 2 harnesses converted into 1. I mean if someone had an extremely detailed right up on how to do it then i would do it and probably go BT.

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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby alltracfreak » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:07 pm

And your talking about a stock 4a vs a built 7a of course your going to feel a difference.

Can i run aftermarket 20v 9.0:1-9.5:1 comp pistons under the FE head without having to modify the valve relief pockets?
if so I'll get a 20v BT engine and put aftermarket rods and pistons and get it running with the Fe head and do the head swap and wiring and electronics later

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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby Rogue-AE95 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:32 pm

I haven't done this, but I'm going to suggest turboing the stock 4A-FE as it is right now, and have some fun with that. Then save up and build a GE to swap in. Jmaz said it best.

jmaz87 wrote:Umm I'm not bashing at all because i boosted a stock 4AFE for like 3 years and it was a blast :)

my stock 4afe still runs great btw only recently took turbo stuff off for another build and it made something around 190 @around 14psi with no tune on a baby GT17.
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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby alltracfreak » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:17 pm

I have a rod knock as of right now so thats why im going to build something

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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:26 pm

alltracfreak wrote:I have a rod knock as of right now so thats why im going to build something

Have you looked at running the GE head on the FE ECU for now?
The biggest thing I see limiting that idea would be incompatible dizzies. Other than that you could probably wing the rest.
Use the FE AFM and any other sensors that may not be cross compatible.
Are there any other big hurdles I'm not thinking of?

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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby alltracfreak » Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:58 pm

Hmmm never thought of that. How hard would it be to do?? My 4afe is map based does that make any difference? Could i do that with the 20v head? Yoy got me thinking now

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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby alltracfreak » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:00 pm

If i had a wiring diagram on all of the distributors i could figure something out.

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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby alltracfreak » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:07 pm

I just read an old forum post and some ones said the ecu plugs on the 20v and 4afe are the same is that True?

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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby Rogue-AE95 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:52 pm

Someone did run a 4A-GTE on a 4A-FE ECU. There's the 6200 RPM redline to consider, but he got it working with a little boost. Unfortunately the topic began to degrade into a flame war and it got locked.

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/134-6 ... -done.html
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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby alltracfreak » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:36 pm

Well **** if it will get it running to break in the motor untill i can afford a stand alone or something else that would be good

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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:59 pm

The distributor plug is unimportant. What is important is the internals of the dizzy. For example I was able to run my Blacktop on my GZE ECU because the pickups and number of teeth are identical. The plugs are different but had the right number of wires so I just cut off the GZE clip and wired in the BT clip.

The only issue you will have with a MAP ECU is it won't be nearly as good at compensating for volumetric changes.
Had you been AFM I would have highly recommended installing a wideband before trying this. With a MAP motor it will be all that much more vital.

The first thing will be to figure out how many trigger wheels and teeth your 4AFE dizzy has and or find out if GZ dizzies fit in the head.

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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby jinx » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:14 am

Use the FE AFM and any other sensors that may not be cross compatible.
Are there any other big hurdles I'm not thinking of?

4afe is map sensor, no afm
one of my 4age distributors have the same guts as the FE I looked at, so I picked up a free full FE setup to run my GE on map

The only issue you will have with a MAP ECU is it won't be nearly as good at compensating for volumetric changes.

yet they still work great with SAFC and boost.... AFM don't, and the MAP far easier to attain than ZE stuff

turboed his completely factory 203k miles 91 3rib 4afe and made 190whp 177ft lb torque at 12psi with a simple Apexi SAFC piggyback unit.

just picked up a 4AFE yesterday to do exactly that! If it gets addicting I'll probably look into a BTM , AEM fic or something with timing control
I'm not interested in too much power in a fwd tho, plus I'm keeping the 4speed auto matic tranny

on the FE vs GE head, I dunno how different the 5FE toyota paseo motor is but, I still have an old turbo magazine detailed article where an unopened 96000 mile motor + t28 turbo, managed by a RRfpr + MSD btm for timing retard. ET 12.5s @16psi. Pretty imperssive for a full weight airconditioned econobox. I'd imagine the 4AF could match that 1.5L

Megasquirt pnp probably cheaper and should kick it up a notch

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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby alltracfreak » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:27 am

A little off topic but how do you guys feel about high compression turbo on any of these motors like 10.0:1 to 10.5:1

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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby Rogue-AE95 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:57 pm

^ I believe someone here turbo'd a stock Blacktop. Maybe ti was Evolucian?

I was wondering, what car are you doing this for? You have All-Trac in your username. Corolla All-Trac sedan or wagon?
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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:09 pm

I am a huge fan of compression.
Same as with an NA build you will want to choose your power goals first, then your cams, then your compression.

I am running 7 PSI on 11:1 stock internal blacktop.

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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:54 pm

although the newer "F" head is superior in overall design...

Image


It still suffers from the same problem I encountered... the front oil drain interferes with the #1 exhaust port. It'll take a certain amount of effort to eliminate this problem...

Image

Image
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby Evo_lucian » Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:55 pm

Rogue-AE95 wrote:^ I believe someone here turbo'd a stock Blacktop. Maybe ti was Evolucian?

I was wondering, what car are you doing this for? You have All-Trac in your username. Corolla All-Trac sedan or wagon?

Nope it was yoshi i think. I started a 1620 turbo build ( blacktop 20v bottom with 16v head) but ended up parting that out.

i am also going to say go ahead and boost the 4AFE and get your feet wet with that. dont spend too much money on a head you are not gonna keep for long. Use the stock 4afe head boost it , when you are ready to go 4age head, sell off the head , manifold turbo etc and just swap on the ge head turbo and manifold. That's what i would do. Also don't waste your money money on a safc, for that 4 you can pick up a megasquirt 1 v2.2 for $157 send a few hours soldering it up and pick up a Gm HEI 7pin ignition module for $10 from auto zone and you have a standalone that will run with the stock 4afe or 4age distributor/ignition system. That's the route i went. i have my megasquirt assembled and bought the HEI module on eBay, just need to get off my ass and put t on a car already.

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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby jinx » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:21 pm

most folks, ain't gonna solder no megasquirt, tune it, and have it singin, 'just like that'. Don't fool yourself
There is a substantial learning curve.... and that's not even considering the setup. Not the case with a SAFC. Far from it
U can always sell it,.... just like the "F" stuff. A viable 'steppin stone'.
A buddy stock 1JZ + cams just dyno'd 575hp/53xtq to the wheels, using a SAFC, 720s & stock ecu. The car rips. Hard!
Waste of time? Not imo

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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby Evo_lucian » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:25 am

Safc advances ignition timing when use to cut fuel with larger injectors. so the more you remove fuel, the more you advance ignition timing. There are write ups all over the net on using megasquirt with a stock 4age electronics most 4a owners are just lazy and always look for the easy way out and end up spending 2x as much in the process.. why spend $300 for a safc when you can get a standalone for that price? Doesn't matter if he made 500whp on a stock ecu 1jz ecu, an safc will only take you so far.

On a side note last time I checked the Safc doesn't work with the stock usdm afm ecu. Correct me if I am wrong, the afm voltage scaling is not compatible with the safc. I would get one of these before an safc http://www.14point7.com/products/ultra- ... controller . for less than half the price, and 10x the tunability

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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby jinx » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:50 pm

SAFC won't work with the GE-AFM, but fine with toyota MAP

14point7.com, perfectpower, unichip..... whateva, while "far superior", have all come and go and none have come close to the SAFC, in setup, ease of use or popularity. Why not?

A full wt street car on stock ecu making 500+ ft lbs tq, darn near uncontrollable on street tires, runs 6.8 1/8th.... tweaked via a used $150 SAFC .....Doesn't matter ? That's comical
Read the 1st paragraph of this thread
Read the Paseo comment I posted
Nobody will ever claim these tools to match any standalone capabilities, but r waaayyyy easier to implement.
At the same time, u clearly won't ever understand, these commendable level of performance attained via these "lesser" tools r adequate for many of us

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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:16 pm

I am not a fan of piggybacks either but if you are going to go with one at the very least get one that modifies the signals coming out of the ECU instead of changing the signals going into the ECU.
This at least gives you much better control closer to what proper engine management can do.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/?q=products ... roller-fic

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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby Evo_lucian » Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:51 am

jinx wrote:SAFC won't work with the GE-AFM, but fine with toyota MAP

14point7.com, perfectpower, unichip..... whateva, while "far superior", have all come and go and none have come close to the SAFC, in setup, ease of use or popularity. Why not?

A full wt street car on stock ecu making 500+ ft lbs tq, darn near uncontrollable on street tires, runs 6.8 1/8th.... tweaked via a used $150 SAFC .....Doesn't matter ? That's comical
Read the 1st paragraph of this thread
Read the Paseo comment I posted
Nobody will ever claim these tools to match any standalone capabilities, but r waaayyyy easier to implement.
At the same time, u clearly won't ever understand, these commendable level of performance attained via these "lesser" tools r adequate for many of us


the logic being used here is baffling to be. NOS is by far the most popular nitrous company around but NX makes a better product for around the same price. Mediocrity is what has always handicapped the 4a world. Just because you get something working now doesn't mean its at its full potential. Now i am all for the DIY approach and using lesser tools. Many who have seen my builds/posts here over the years will attest to that. Now the safc is fine if the OP wants to get it, just saying that for the $ you can do better. btw if you want to bring up set up, ease of use or popularity a FMU has the SAFC beat

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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby jinx » Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:38 am

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:I am not a fan of piggybacks either but if you are going to go with one at the very least get one that modifies the signals coming out of the ECU instead of changing the signals going into the ECU.
This at least gives you much better control closer to what proper engine management can do.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/?q=products ... roller-fic


that would b better.... wasn't emanage, same principle?
problem is, I don't u see many people using the FIC. Have u seen any?

Countless have run SAFC with spectacular results for years. Its dam near a cornerstone for the DSM community
Look what they've accomplished using a safc + stock/eprom ecu + cheap datalogger for over a decade. I 4 one, ain't gonna knock it

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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby jinx » Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:00 am

the logic being used here is baffling to be. NOS is by far the most popular nitrous company around but NX makes a better product for around the same price. Mediocrity is what has always handicapped the 4a world. Just because you get something working now doesn't mean its at its full potential. Now i am all for the DIY approach and using lesser tools. Many who have seen my builds/posts here over the years will attest to that. Now the safc is fine if the OP wants to get it, just saying that for the $ you can do better. btw if you want to bring up set up, ease of use or popularity a FMU has the SAFC beat


this is a case of "tunnel vision". Far too much emphasis on the equipment, but total disregard for the final result

Not everyone is interested in maximizing full potential. A 500 hp 1jz is not "mediocrity", simply because "u can have a 1000hp"
u pick up a tool 2 do a job

Countless testimonials of the tremendous amount of reading it took to get to a sucessful megasquirt result
What's your 40 hours worth ? Maybe nothing 2 u.... but 2 most of us, absorbed with life etc..... that's 5,6,$700 you're not taking into consideration. Huge difference
Price alone is thinking in one dimension..... value is in 3D

Impossible for a FMU to make that 1jz run like it does (lacks adjustment of the fuel curve). Took all of 20 minutes to wire in
Apple vs orange

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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:02 am

jinx wrote:
yoshimitsuspeed wrote:that would b better.... wasn't emanage, same principle?
problem is, I don't u see many people using the FIC. Have u seen any?



Yes emanage or at least some variants is the same principle. I don't know their line as well but I think some are more capable than others.
I like AEM and lean towards their products when I can.

I have done a little searching and found people successfully using the FIC in other communities. Not many running piggybacks at all in the 4A world.

jinx wrote:
yoshimitsuspeed wrote:
Countless have run SAFC with spectacular results for years. Its dam near a cornerstone for the DSM community
Look what they've accomplished using a safc + stock/eprom ecu + cheap datalogger for over a decade. I 4 one, ain't gonna knock it


That's interesting. I started out in the DSM world and still check in from time to time. I never rememebered hearing much about the safc so I did a quick search and couldn't find anything impressive. I'm sure there are people who have done impressive things but this thread seems to sum up the average impression of the SAFC pretty well.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie- ... -safc.html
The other thing to remember is that their ECUs are much more capable and are also re programmable. Most of the discussions I read on using an safc were on programmed chips and just using the safc for fine trim tuning.

It's pretty easy to get 160 WHP out of the stock NA ECU with no more than an FMU and AFM tweaks. The truth is that this actually has more control than the SAFC in a way. You can control fuel pressure for near redline WOT AFRs and then you can control the flapper door spring for mid range fueling and you can change the bypass screw for idle and low RPM AFRs. Only one of those has any effect on timing or anything else and can be used for fine fuel trim around the others.
I am confident I could make a lot more power on this setup if I felt it was worth it. I would try before trying an SAFC. I just feel like at that point you are so much better off moving to a setup that gives you full control of fuel and spark.

I do believe evo is right about the SAFC not working with the NA AFM which kills that idea right there.
Using it on an AFM GZE ECU would be pointless since the low end leanout is caused by a cap on the AFM signal so an SAFC would not help in the least.
On a MAP motor you can scale your injector size and MAP sensor scale proportionately and then fine tune with fuel pressure up to the practical limits of the ECU. At that point you might as well just go straight to real engine management.

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Re: 4afte thoughts, opinions, comments

Postby jinx » Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:18 pm

I started out in the DSM world and still check in from time to time. I never rememebered hearing much about the safc so I

did a quick search and couldn't find anything impressive. I'm sure there are people who have done impressive things but this thread

seems to sum up the average impression of the SAFC pretty well.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie- ... -safc.html


u definitely not from DSM early days then.... of oem ecu + hacked 1st gen mafs + SAFC.
Took the quicker ones deep 11s... from a heavy 2.0L street car. Wonder what u consider impressive then - ;)
Back then, you could hardly find a moded/quick dsm without a safc
2013 thread is from the pepsi generation.... and there r so many more options available. So that thread sums up nothing

Here.... although I'm sure nothing with a safc will ever impress ya..... not even the hot 1jz mentioned above
SAFC turn a lowly toyota pickup into a porsche eater
http://www.whyturbothat.com/srunnermain.html

seen the exact same approah and result from a bone stock 1st gen sentra se-r and a 92 240sx

frown upon the safc all u like. Clever folk have worked around its limitations, and did more using less

in fact, I can hardly think of a single more effective more popular tuning device. Haters gonna hate :lol: oh well