N/A Build! Need Assistance

AE Harold.
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N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby AE Harold. » Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:03 pm

Hi you doing everybody. I've decided to do a N/A setup on my AE86. I already have a 7 rib 4age 16v block, wiseco forged high compression pistons, and 20v itbs. I want to if I can run a stock 16v crank and use the stock 16v rods for my high compression build. Im trying to aim for a 12-1 or 12.5-1 compression ratio. Im not building for full on track use. I'm aiming for a streetable tuned 4age that can be driven mostly on the street but if I want to have some good track fun I can give it all without no worry.
Lastly i would like to know what head I should use and what head work should I do.
Thank you, Ill be looking forward for anyones responses and suggestions.

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yoshimitsuspeed
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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:38 pm

AE Harold. wrote:Hi you doing everybody. I've decided to do a N/A setup on my AE86. I already have a 7 rib 4age 16v block, wiseco forged high compression pistons, and 20v itbs. I want to if I can run a stock 16v crank and use the stock 16v rods for my high compression build. Im trying to aim for a 12-1 or 12.5-1 compression ratio. Im not building for full on track use. I'm aiming for a streetable tuned 4age that can be driven mostly on the street but if I want to have some good track fun I can give it all without no worry.
Lastly i would like to know what head I should use and what head work should I do.
Thank you, Ill be looking forward for anyones responses and suggestions.


Do you have the Wisecos already? Why did you choose them over other options? There are much better options though many would cost a bit more.
Have you settled on cams? You would want to do this before settling on pistons and CR.
Stock crank and rods can hold up to more than most people can throw at them.
Are you running the stock ECU and redline? Or are you going with engine management?
In stock form the 20v heads would be best but take a lot of work especially on a longi layout.
The Smallport is the better of the 16 valves but the largeport can be made to do a lot as well.
I'm sure oldskewltoy will chime in before long and can go into better detail than I can about head work.

AE Harold.
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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby AE Harold. » Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:12 pm

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:
AE Harold. wrote:Hi you doing everybody. I've decided to do a N/A setup on my AE86. I already have a 7 rib 4age 16v block, wiseco forged high compression pistons, and 20v itbs. I want to if I can run a stock 16v crank and use the stock 16v rods for my high compression build. Im trying to aim for a 12-1 or 12.5-1 compression ratio. Im not building for full on track use. I'm aiming for a streetable tuned 4age that can be driven mostly on the street but if I want to have some good track fun I can give it all without no worry.
Lastly i would like to know what head I should use and what head work should I do.
Thank you, Ill be looking forward for anyones responses and suggestions.


Do you have the Wisecos already? Why did you choose them over other options? There are much better options though many would cost a bit more.
Have you settled on cams? You would want to do this before settling on pistons and CR.
Stock crank and rods can hold up to more than most people can throw at them.
Are you running the stock ECU and redline? Or are you going with engine management?
In stock form the 20v heads would be best but take a lot of work especially on a longi layout.
The Smallport is the better of the 16 valves but the largeport can be made to do a lot as well.
I'm sure oldskewltoy will chime in before long and can go into better detail than I can about head work.


I have the Wisecos already. Got them because they were being sold at a great price. Ive been reading about cams and many people say for a great streetable 16 4age 272 - 288 deg cams with 8.5 lift would be best for a streetable 4age. I will not be running the stock ecu. Im planning on buying an engine management system, most likely a AEM V2.
If you want to know more about the pistons I've purchased i do have the specs of them.

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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:20 pm

AE Harold. wrote:
yoshimitsuspeed wrote:
AE Harold. wrote:Hi you doing everybody. I've decided to do a N/A setup on my AE86. I already have a 7 rib 4age 16v block, wiseco forged high compression pistons, and 20v itbs. I want to if I can run a stock 16v crank and use the stock 16v rods for my high compression build. Im trying to aim for a 12-1 or 12.5-1 compression ratio. Im not building for full on track use. I'm aiming for a streetable tuned 4age that can be driven mostly on the street but if I want to have some good track fun I can give it all without no worry.
Lastly i would like to know what head I should use and what head work should I do.
Thank you, Ill be looking forward for anyones responses and suggestions.


Do you have the Wisecos already? Why did you choose them over other options? There are much better options though many would cost a bit more.
Have you settled on cams? You would want to do this before settling on pistons and CR.
Stock crank and rods can hold up to more than most people can throw at them.
Are you running the stock ECU and redline? Or are you going with engine management?
In stock form the 20v heads would be best but take a lot of work especially on a longi layout.
The Smallport is the better of the 16 valves but the largeport can be made to do a lot as well.
I'm sure oldskewltoy will chime in before long and can go into better detail than I can about head work.


I have the Wisecos already. Got them because they were being sold at a great price. Ive been reading about cams and many people say for a great streetable 16 4age 272 - 288 deg cams with 8.5 lift would be best for a streetable 4age. I will not be running the stock ecu. Im planning on buying an engine management system, most likely a AEM V2.
If you want to know more about the pistons I've purchased i do have the specs of them.


I assumed they were Wiseco's shelf piston. If not then yeah you should definitely give me the details.
Have you run the numbers for squish and compression? None of the aftermarket piston manufacturers can be trusted on their numbers.

http://www.matrixgarage.com/content/4ag ... ormation-0

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oldeskewltoy
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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:21 pm

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:
AE Harold. wrote:Hi you doing everybody. I've decided to do a N/A setup on my AE86. I already have a 7 rib 4age 16v block, wiseco forged high compression pistons, and 20v itbs. I want to if I can run a stock 16v crank and use the stock 16v rods for my high compression build. Im trying to aim for a 12-1 or 12.5-1 compression ratio. Im not building for full on track use. I'm aiming for a streetable tuned 4age that can be driven mostly on the street but if I want to have some good track fun I can give it all without no worry.
Lastly i would like to know what head I should use and what head work should I do.
Thank you, Ill be looking forward for anyones responses and suggestions.


Do you have the Wisecos already? Why did you choose them over other options? There are much better options though many would cost a bit more.
Have you settled on cams? You would want to do this before settling on pistons and CR.
Stock crank and rods can hold up to more than most people can throw at them.
Are you running the stock ECU and redline? Or are you going with engine management?
In stock form the 20v heads would be best but take a lot of work especially on a longi layout.
The Smallport is the better of the 16 valves but the largeport can be made to do a lot as well.
I'm sure oldskewltoy will chime in before long and can go into better detail than I can about head work.



Is this the Wiseco you have??? -

Image

You really don't want those....... I know that sounds presumptuous, but the Wiseco was built using inaccurate information, and to get them to work as they were intended could cost quite a bit of money... MORE than another set of pistons!! As Yoshi pointed out... there are better choices


If you are going ITBs... I'd recommend a smallport - only because the alignment to the ports is a bit better. As Yoshi points out... I do port cylinder heads for a living - http://club4ag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300


:mrgreen:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby totta crolla » Fri Oct 24, 2014 1:38 am

The AEM ecu is happier when it reads a Hall signal rather than the Magnetic setup from the 4age distributor so you would be better off running it with a trigger wheel off of the crank pulley.
I have a basic setup for the V1 ecu that will start and run the engine I may also be able to help with pinouts but remember mine is a V1 as opposed to the V2 that you are proposing.

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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby AE Harold. » Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:30 am

oldeskewltoy wrote:
yoshimitsuspeed wrote:
AE Harold. wrote:Hi you doing everybody. I've decided to do a N/A setup on my AE86. I already have a 7 rib 4age 16v block, wiseco forged high compression pistons, and 20v itbs. I want to if I can run a stock 16v crank and use the stock 16v rods for my high compression build. Im trying to aim for a 12-1 or 12.5-1 compression ratio. Im not building for full on track use. I'm aiming for a streetable tuned 4age that can be driven mostly on the street but if I want to have some good track fun I can give it all without no worry.
Lastly i would like to know what head I should use and what head work should I do.
Thank you, Ill be looking forward for anyones responses and suggestions.


Do you have the Wisecos already? Why did you choose them over other options? There are much better options though many would cost a bit more.
Have you settled on cams? You would want to do this before settling on pistons and CR.
Stock crank and rods can hold up to more than most people can throw at them.
Are you running the stock ECU and redline? Or are you going with engine management?
In stock form the 20v heads would be best but take a lot of work especially on a longi layout.
The Smallport is the better of the 16 valves but the largeport can be made to do a lot as well.
I'm sure oldskewltoy will chime in before long and can go into better detail than I can about head work.



Is this the Wiseco you have??? -

Image

You really don't want those....... I know that sounds presumptuous, but the Wiseco was built using inaccurate information, and to get them to work as they were intended could cost quite a bit of money... MORE than another set of pistons!! As Yoshi pointed out... there are better choices


If you are going ITBs... I'd recommend a smallport - only because the alignment to the ports is a bit better. As Yoshi points out... I do port cylinder heads for a living - http://club4ag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300


:mrgreen:


Yes oldeskewltoy. Those are the pistons I have. Unfortunately after being told there not the ones i want, it really bums me out. But anyway, what pistons should i get. Can you guys throw me in the right direction to great pistons that would be great for my needs and build.
Love your head work. looking forward to do business with you!

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oldeskewltoy
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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:11 am

piston choice has a LOT to do with camshaft choice... valve choice... and your choice whether or not to keep it non-interference... or interference.

Interference engine is one where.... ***IF*** the timing belt breaks, the piston hits the valve. Yoshi and I both have piston designs... mine are a bit flatter because mine are borderline interference (depending on cam lift) and his have a slightly taller dome, because his pistons are non interference for cams with a bit more lift them mine.

Yoshi can post his... this is my piston design - note the small ramps outside the valve reliefs, these ramps help direct the "squish" towards the spark plug

Image

Image



My pistons deliver a static compression ratio of 10.8 to 1 with no other changes to the engine.

Overbore the block to 81.5mm, shrink the chamber to 34cc, and have a final squish of .035" and your static compression ratio is 12 to 1. My pistons sell for $675.00, and come as you see them, with everything* included (* - 4 pistons, 4 pins, 8 pin locks, and a full set of rings for 4 pistons)

oldeskewltoy@yahoo.com
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:21 am

I can get you most shelf pistons made for the AW11. Unfortunately there aren't any over about 10.5:1 compression that I am particularly fond of.
Of the shelf pistons this would have to be the one I dislike the least.
Image
http://www.matrixgarage.com/products/cp ... r-1mm-over

The flatter topography is preferable and will give better overlap scavenging flow and improved combustion.
It's still not perfect. The valve reliefs are made for massive cams and oversized valves. If you aren't running those you can reduce them considerably and make the dome even flatter. My designs also use more of the chamber as squish.
For another couple hundred bucks I can design you a piston optimized for your build.

AE Harold. wrote:
Yes oldeskewltoy. Those are the pistons I have. Unfortunately after being told there not the ones i want, it really bums me out. But anyway, what pistons should i get. Can you guys throw me in the right direction to great pistons that would be great for my needs and build.
Love your head work. looking forward to do business with you!

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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:38 am

These are the pistons OST is talking about. They are only designed as 11.2:1 CR but could go higher with a head shave. You do need to be careful because it uses the cast area of the head as squish so if you shave it too much it could hit the head. Should be able to shave at least .5mm without problems.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/products/ma ... ompression

It is designed to be a non interference design with the Tomei poncam and .8mm HG. This is nice for more street based builds because you don't have to worry about loosing your timing belt or anything like that. The poncam and this piston is a great setup for the stock ECU but it sounds like you want to take it a step further.
If you moved the head lower than that or ran bigger cams than that it would become interference and at that point the deep valve reliefs aren't doing you any good. At that point you are better off accepting an interference design, making the reliefs smaller and flattening the dome a bit.

At the other end of the spectrum this is a 14:1 piston that I designed specifically for a race build.
Image

I have been wanting to design my own shelf piston that lies somewhere between those two but I would need to upgrade to a more expensive monthly CAD plan to do it so I have been waiting till I get hired for a project or get a few personal projects stacked up to make it more worthwhile.

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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby AE Harold. » Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:16 pm

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:These are the pistons OST is talking about. They are only designed as 11.2:1 CR but could go higher with a head shave. You do need to be careful because it uses the cast area of the head as squish so if you shave it too much it could hit the head. Should be able to shave at least .5mm without problems.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/products/ma ... ompression

It is designed to be a non interference design with the Tomei poncam and .8mm HG. This is nice for more street based builds because you don't have to worry about loosing your timing belt or anything like that. The poncam and this piston is a great setup for the stock ECU but it sounds like you want to take it a step further.
If you moved the head lower than that or ran bigger cams than that it would become interference and at that point the deep valve reliefs aren't doing you any good. At that point you are better off accepting an interference design, making the reliefs smaller and flattening the dome a bit.

At the other end of the spectrum this is a 14:1 piston that I designed specifically for a race build.
Image

I have been wanting to design my own shelf piston that lies somewhere between those two but I would need to upgrade to a more expensive monthly CAD plan to do it so I have been waiting till I get hired for a project or get a few personal projects stacked up to make it more worthwhile.


Both of your guys piston designs look great. But why would the wiseco pistons i have won't or would be hard to use for my build. The pistons contain a comp height of 1.207 and a bore size of 3.2086.
i rather have a non-inference motor to eliminate that chance of damaging valves if ever the timing belt fails.

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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:44 pm

the flatter the crown, the better flame propagation (better burn), the Wiseco pistons have a peaked crown, not as good for flame propagation. As you reported the compression height is 1.207" (30.65mm), that is likely to stick above the block even before the block is trued(machined for straight). Stock pistons, and my pistons use a compression height of 1.201"(30.50mm). What is the crown volume on your Wiseco pistons? My pistons are 2.5cc, many of the "shelf" pistons have crown volumes of over 4cc.

My point here is the Wiseco pistons were designed for racing valves (2mm oversize), and a chamber volume of 39cc. Neither are typically used in the majority of N/A builds
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby AE Harold. » Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:33 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:the flatter the crown, the better flame propagation (better burn), the Wiseco pistons have a peaked crown, not as good for flame propagation. As you reported the compression height is 1.207" (30.65mm), that is likely to stick above the block even before the block is trued(machined for straight). Stock pistons, and my pistons use a compression height of 1.201"(30.50mm). What is the crown volume on your Wiseco pistons? My pistons are 2.5cc, many of the "shelf" pistons have crown volumes of over 4cc.

My point here is the Wiseco pistons were designed for racing valves (2mm oversize), and a chamber volume of 39cc. Neither are typically used in the majority of N/A builds



The crown volume of the pistons are 5.9cc which would be too much after the information that you've have told me.
With your pistons, will I be able go up to 12 to 12.5-1 compression ration while using stock crank and rods?

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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:48 pm

AE Harold. wrote:
oldeskewltoy wrote:the flatter the crown, the better flame propagation (better burn), the Wiseco pistons have a peaked crown, not as good for flame propagation. As you reported the compression height is 1.207" (30.65mm), that is likely to stick above the block even before the block is trued(machined for straight). Stock pistons, and my pistons use a compression height of 1.201"(30.50mm). What is the crown volume on your Wiseco pistons? My pistons are 2.5cc, many of the "shelf" pistons have crown volumes of over 4cc.

My point here is the Wiseco pistons were designed for racing valves (2mm oversize), and a chamber volume of 39cc. Neither are typically used in the majority of N/A builds



The crown volume of the pistons are 5.9cc which would be too much after the information that you've have told me.
With your pistons, will I be able go up to 12 to 12.5-1 compression ration while using stock crank and rods?


oldeskewltoy wrote:Overbore the block to 81.5mm(3.209"), shrink* the chamber to 34cc, and have a final squish of .035" and your static compression ratio is 12 to 1. (edit) with my pistons.

* - to shrink the chamber the head is machined after the port work

oldeskewltoy@yahoo.com


As I stated above... BUT before you buy my pistons... or yoshis... you need to find a machine shop who can work on 4AG engines. Once you find a machine shop, then you can proceed with parts acquisition.

In the mean time you might try selling the wiseco's on ebaY... and try to get as much as you can for them....
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

AE Harold.
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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby AE Harold. » Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:35 pm

[/quote]

As I stated above... BUT before you buy my pistons... or yoshis... you need to find a machine shop who can work on 4AG engines. Once you find a machine shop, then you can proceed with parts acquisition.

In the mean time you might try selling the wiseco's on ebaY... and try to get as much as you can for them....[/quote]


Alright. Thanks for the advice. I will search for a machine shop that works on 4AG engine. As soon as I find a shop and have everything settled. I will contact you guys back and maybe do some business with you guys. Thanks.

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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby AE Harold. » Mon Oct 27, 2014 5:06 pm

So I've decided I'm using my wiseco high comp pistons.
Now I'm wondering if the stock valves and springs can take cams of 272 duration and a 7.9mm lift. The cams I'm looking at are toda cams with that same spec. Will i need to buy stronger springs and valves?

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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:23 am

So you have decided to go with the cheapest piston you can find but have chosen the most expensive shelf cam on the market?
Personally I would much rather reallocate that money for pistons.
I can get you Toda cams so if you chose to go that way let me know.
I can also get a lot of other cams that IMO would be a better bang for the buck.
For half the price I could get you Tomei poncams or pro cams.
Pro cams would require a shim under bucket conversion but the cost of the cams and shim under would still be right around the price of the Todas.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/store/tomei-1
I can also get you Kelford cams
http://www.matrixgarage.com/store/kelford
The HV series are huge lift and require shim under but the standard series are all designed to run with the stock buckets.
The 193-B would be a great option and put you in a similar ballpark as the Todas you mentioned but just a bit more aggressive.
The cost would still be about 60% that of the Todas.

If you did go with the Toda you might be okay with stock springs if you kept stock redline but I really wouldn't recommend it. Why risk it when you are putting so much money into everything else? You wouldn't want or need to go with a very stiff spring. Something like the HKS would be plenty.

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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby AE Harold. » Tue Oct 28, 2014 12:10 pm

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:So you have decided to go with the cheapest piston you can find but have chosen the most expensive shelf cam on the market?
Personally I would much rather reallocate that money for pistons.
I can get you Toda cams so if you chose to go that way let me know.
I can also get a lot of other cams that IMO would be a better bang for the buck.
For half the price I could get you Tomei poncams or pro cams.
Pro cams would require a shim under bucket conversion but the cost of the cams and shim under would still be right around the price of the Todas.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/store/tomei-1
I can also get you Kelford cams
http://www.matrixgarage.com/store/kelford
The HV series are huge lift and require shim under but the standard series are all designed to run with the stock buckets.
The 193-B would be a great option and put you in a similar ballpark as the Todas you mentioned but just a bit more aggressive.
The cost would still be about 60% that of the Todas.

If you did go with the Toda you might be okay with stock springs if you kept stock redline but I really wouldn't recommend it. Why risk it when you are putting so much money into everything else? You wouldn't want or need to go with a very stiff spring. Something like the HKS would be plenty.


Toda cams was just a comparison to what cam Im looking for. I don't want a huge lift where it will cause the drivability of the car to be horrible on the street. I would like to have the highest streetable cam.
Ive read pon cams are a good product. With there 264 deg and 8.1mm lift, will i be able to run stock spring set or will it be better to purchase the HKS as you stated above. Since everything is going to be apart might as well change them right?
As far as the Kelford cams, are they good? I haven't really heard about the use of kelford cams.

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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby AE Harold. » Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:24 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:piston choice has a LOT to do with camshaft choice... valve choice... and your choice whether or not to keep it non-interference... or interference.

Interference engine is one where.... ***IF*** the timing belt breaks, the piston hits the valve. Yoshi and I both have piston designs... mine are a bit flatter because mine are borderline interference (depending on cam lift) and his have a slightly taller dome, because his pistons are non interference for cams with a bit more lift them mine.

Yoshi can post his... this is my piston design - note the small ramps outside the valve reliefs, these ramps help direct the "squish" towards the spark plug

Image

Image



My pistons deliver a static compression ratio of 10.8 to 1 with no other changes to the engine.

Overbore the block to 81.5mm, shrink the chamber to 34cc, and have a final squish of .035" and your static compression ratio is 12 to 1. My pistons sell for $675.00, and come as you see them, with everything* included (* - 4 pistons, 4 pins, 8 pin locks, and a full set of rings for 4 pistons)

oldeskewltoy@yahoo.com


Been second guessing about pistons now. Thinking if Im going to build it better build it right the first time.
How long will it take to have your pistons shipped to me. I reach the 12.1 compression that I'm looking for with your designed pistons correct?

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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:40 pm

AE Harold. wrote:Toda cams was just a comparison to what cam Im looking for. I don't want a huge lift where it will cause the drivability of the car to be horrible on the street. I would like to have the highest streetable cam.
Ive read pon cams are a good product. With there 264 deg and 8.1mm lift, will i be able to run stock spring set or will it be better to purchase the HKS as you stated above. Since everything is going to be apart might as well change them right?
As far as the Kelford cams, are they good? I haven't really heard about the use of kelford cams.


Duration is going to effect things at least as much as lift. Probably more. reduced driveability will be a sign of a bad build. People always talk about high performance builds reducing low end or driveability. This is not true in a proper build. The more cam you run the more compression you run. If it's all dialed in you should make at least as much power as it originally did in the mid range.
It's just that in comparison to the power it makes in the top end that same amount of power will feel much slower in the low end.
Here is a stock 4AGe dyno.
Image

Here is my customers poncam dyno

Image


And an N2 build
Image

The first two dynos are AW11 so they will read a little higher. The last is an AE86 so probably about 5% more drivetrain loss.

At 3000 RPM the stock 4A has about 40 hp.
The poncam 4A and N2 motors are making about 50 HP. That's a 20% gain in power. Pretty impressive.

From there the poncam build climbs quickest of all and around 6000 RPM is making a good bit more power than the N2 but then it starts to plateau while the N2 is now rapidly climbing. If you averaged out the power made between 5000 and 8000 RPM they would be pretty similar.
Both are making considerably more than the stock 4AGE from 3000 up.


The Kelfords are highly respected. If money weren't an option I would choose them over poncams but the poncams are a good bit cheaper and that can win out for a lot of people.
Since the procams would need a shim under conversion and are much more aggressive I would lean towards the Kelfords in most situations.

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oldeskewltoy
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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:36 pm

AE Harold wrote:Hi you doing everybody. I've decided to do a N/A setup on my AE86. I already have a 7 rib 4age 16v block, wiseco forged high compression pistons, and 20v itbs. I want to if I can run a stock 16v crank and use the stock 16v rods for my high compression build. Im trying to aim for a 12-1 or 12.5-1 compression ratio. Im not building for full on track use. I'm aiming for a streetable tuned 4age that can be driven mostly on the street but if I want to have some good track fun I can give it all without no worry.
Lastly i would like to know what head I should use and what head work should I do.
Thank you, Ill be looking forward for anyones responses and suggestions.


Harold... what kind of budget are you planning on? This might be the most important question you need to ask yourself.....

Once you have an idea... FIND that machine shop, and get pricing on shop fees to recondition the engine.

one thing has been bothering me... WHY? Why do you want 12 -12.5 compression? What is it that makes you think you need compression that high???

I'm running stock pistons, my static compression is "only" 10.75 to 1... and yet I'm making VERY good power

Image
(50hp and 90#/ft @ 3000)

Although the 4AGE does NEED more compression, that almost everyone agrees with, but just how much is another story. That is why I designed my pistons to the specifications they are... They are designed to fill the gap between stock and race, they can be machined down, and used inside a stock engine for mild all-around improvement, or they can work with mild cams to produce hot street 4AGEs. Anything racing... should be purposeful built for the specific application.

Back to costs... (* = race build costs)
complete Toyota engine overhaul kit + cam cover seals - $320 (parts)
performance cams - $600-$1200 (parts)
headwork, including complete rebuild - $600, up to $3500* or more (machine shop costs)
bearings (mains, rods, thrust) - $225-$300 (parts)
block reconditioning - $400 - $2500* (machine shop costs)
pistons $700-$2000(5 axes CNC milled) (parts)
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:52 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:Although the 4AGE does NEED more compression, that almost everyone agrees with, but just how much is another story.


That's easy.
As much as you can afford without detonation.

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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby burdickjp » Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:22 pm

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:
oldeskewltoy wrote:Although the 4AGE does NEED more compression, that almost everyone agrees with, but just how much is another story.


That's easy.
As much as you can afford without detonation.


Better answer: It depends on your cams.

EVERYTHING depends on your cams.

Cams are the correct starting point for any build.

I'm a big PonCam fan, but like Yoshi, I think Kelford make REALLY good cams. If budget allows, I would opt for the shimless bucket conversion to be able to run the HV cams.
Pursuing the ideal

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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby AE Harold. » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:28 pm

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:
AE Harold. wrote:Toda cams was just a comparison to what cam Im looking for. I don't want a huge lift where it will cause the drivability of the car to be horrible on the street. I would like to have the highest streetable cam.
Ive read pon cams are a good product. With there 264 deg and 8.1mm lift, will i be able to run stock spring set or will it be better to purchase the HKS as you stated above. Since everything is going to be apart might as well change them right?
As far as the Kelford cams, are they good? I haven't really heard about the use of kelford cams.


Duration is going to effect things at least as much as lift. Probably more. reduced driveability will be a sign of a bad build. People always talk about high performance builds reducing low end or driveability. This is not true in a proper build. The more cam you run the more compression you run. If it's all dialed in you should make at least as much power as it originally did in the mid range.
It's just that in comparison to the power it makes in the top end that same amount of power will feel much slower in the low end.
Here is a stock 4AGe dyno.
Image

Here is my customers poncam dyno

Image


And an N2 build
Image

The first two dynos are AW11 so they will read a little higher. The last is an AE86 so probably about 5% more drivetrain loss.

At 3000 RPM the stock 4A has about 40 hp.
The poncam 4A and N2 motors are making about 50 HP. That's a 20% gain in power. Pretty impressive.

From there the poncam build climbs quickest of all and around 6000 RPM is making a good bit more power than the N2 but then it starts to plateau while the N2 is now rapidly climbing. If you averaged out the power made between 5000 and 8000 RPM they would be pretty similar.
Both are making considerably more than the stock 4AGE from 3000 up.


The Kelfords are highly respected. If money weren't an option I would choose them over poncams but the poncams are a good bit cheaper and that can win out for a lot of people.
Since the procams would need a shim under conversion and are much more aggressive I would lean towards the Kelfords in most situations.



Great info and comparisons.
Now with the kelford 193-B cams that you mentioned before, will i need a shim under conversion since the durations of the cams are 284/278 and lifts are 9.20mm/8.50mm. Will the duration and lift cause me to lose drivability and a lot of low end?

burdickjp
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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby burdickjp » Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:53 pm

Kelfords HV cams require the shim under or shimless conversion. Their not HV cams do not.

The shim less conversion is not expensive and removes a lot of weight from the valvetrain.
Pursuing the ideal

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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:00 am

burdickjp wrote:
Better answer: It depends on your cams.

EVERYTHING depends on your cams.

Cams are the correct starting point for any build.

I'm a big PonCam fan, but like Yoshi, I think Kelford make REALLY good cams. If budget allows, I would opt for the shimless bucket conversion to be able to run the HV cams.


That's what I mean by what you can afford. You want to run the most compression your cams, engine management and other supporting mods will allow.
To make the most power possible you want to be as close as you can get to detonation as you can without hitting it as safely possible.
Shimless is great but for long term cost and reliability shims are an advantage. The vast majority of builds will benefit from easy shimming you get from shim under and most will be plenty happy with OEM buckets. The Poncams will be more than enough for most builds and the 193-B will cover the vast majority of builds that go beyond that.

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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:13 am

AE Harold. wrote:

Great info and comparisons.
Now with the kelford 193-B cams that you mentioned before, will i need a shim under conversion since the durations of the cams are 284/278 and lifts are 9.20mm/8.50mm. Will the duration and lift cause me to lose drivability and a lot of low end?


The HV cams require a shim under or shimless conversion. All the standard 193-X cams are all designed to run on the stock buckets. The 193-B are only the second most aggressive of the cams that can be run on the stock buckets. I don't mention the 193-A because they are very similar to the poncams and personally I would pick the poncams over the 193-A because I think they are a better bang for the buck.
If I was doing a conservative build on the stock ECU I would generally aim for the Poncams or possibly 193-A. If I was doing a slightly more aggressive build with engine management I would step up a little. In this case I think the 193-B would be a great choice. They are a little more aggressive, would allow you to run a little more compression and make a good bit more peak power while maintaining similar mid range and making a good bit more top end.
With more money there is plenty of room to grow from there but things will get exponentially more expensive per hp you make. Beyond that unless you are limited by a class of racing I would start to suggest a 7A build and or turbo build or swap.

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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby AE Harold. » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:02 pm

Ive been told that in order to make great power with 4age and itbs you'll need to run a high compression. Somewhere around 12-12.5-1
My budget is about 4k, but no thinking… Is it worth staying with the 16v or is it better to do a frankenstien build or full motor swap such as a 20v or even 3sge beams.

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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:15 pm

AE Harold. wrote:Ive been told that in order to make great power with 4age and itbs you'll need to run a high compression.


That's like saying to be a really fast running you need good shoes. It's part of the equation but without the rest done properly it's useless. People who say things like that likely don't know what they are talking about. How much compression you can run is completely dependent on the cams. How much power they make depends on many other things. If it's not all addressed together you will have a much lower chance of being happy with the build.

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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:13 am

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:
AE Harold. wrote:Ive been told that in order to make great power with 4age and itbs you'll need to run a high compression.


That's like saying to be a really fast running you need good shoes. It's part of the equation but without the rest done properly it's useless. People who say things like that likely don't know what they are talking about. How much compression you can run is completely dependent on the cams. How much power they make depends on many other things. If it's not all addressed together you will have a much lower chance of being happy with the build.



I differ slightly... it isn't necessarily part of the equation! ITBs don't automatically mean more power. They are a type of induction system, that is all... my 145whp engine, and yoshi's client both use single throttle bodies, and both of us are making 40%+ more power then stock!!!

The rest of what yoshi's says is pretty accurate.

One word of warning about ITBs... they are notorious for being improperly set up (synchronized - both mechanically, as well as vacuum) causing many people who have them, SERIOUS drive-ability issues.
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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