N/A Build! Need Assistance

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oldeskewltoy
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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:07 pm

AE Harold. wrote: Can I install the poncams, perform a good head job, and maybe a ted head gasket to bump up compression?


yes...

yes... the current strong compression readings do show solid compression rings... it doesn't tell us a lot about the oil control rings, but if she doesn't smoke... she should be good to go. I'm not sure about the "ted" head gasket, but I believe you mean the TRD .8mm. I'm not sure if it is still available, but you should be able to find something similar. Performing chamber work, and machining the heads surface to gain compression will help by adding about 1/2 a point. You will want to add adjustable timing pulleys to properly set the cams with a big head cut

With the compression adders (good compression shortblock, head cut, thin gasket) you will get better compression then it was stock... you will also get more action on the "squish".
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby AE Harold. » Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:22 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:
AE Harold. wrote:
yes... the current strong compression readings do show solid compression rings... it doesn't tell us a lot about the oil control rings, but if she doesn't smoke... she should be good to go. I'm not sure about the "ted" head gasket, but I believe you mean the TRD .8mm. I'm not sure if it is still available, but you should be able to find something similar. Performing chamber work, and machining the heads surface to gain compression will help by adding about 1/2 a point. You will want to add adjustable timing pulleys to properly set the cams with a big head cut

With the compression adders (good compression shortblock, head cut, thin gasket) you will get better compression then it was stock... you will also get more action on the "squish".


Cool! And the small port head is best for air flow or will the big port be the better choice?
I do plan on installing the itbs in the future.

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oldeskewltoy
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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:20 am

AE Harold. wrote:
oldeskewltoy wrote:
AE Harold. wrote:
yes... the current strong compression readings do show solid compression rings... it doesn't tell us a lot about the oil control rings, but if she doesn't smoke... she should be good to go. I'm not sure about the "ted" head gasket, but I believe you mean the TRD .8mm. I'm not sure if it is still available, but you should be able to find something similar. Performing chamber work, and machining the heads surface to gain compression will help by adding about 1/2 a point. You will want to add adjustable timing pulleys to properly set the cams with a big head cut

With the compression adders (good compression shortblock, head cut, thin gasket) you will get better compression then it was stock... you will also get more action on the "squish".


Cool! And the small port head is best for air flow or will the big port be the better choice?
I do plan on installing the itbs in the future.


I would recommend you keep the TVIS/largeport head...

stock to stock there is a tiny difference in the low rpm power band, but for all the possible gains... there are far greater chances of problems because you mixed - smallport head on largeport electronics, and smallport to largeport adapter so you can run the stock intake manifold (smallport never had a rwd intake manifold)
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby burdickjp » Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:16 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:stock to stock there is a tiny difference in the low rpm power band, but for all the possible gains... there are far greater chances of problems because you mixed - smallport head on largeport electronics, and smallport to largeport adapter so you can run the stock intake manifold (smallport never had a rwd intake manifold)


That's what a megasquirt and ITBs are for. Getting there isn't easy, but there are paths.
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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:30 pm

It does turn into a bit of a snowball effect. I would run the SP head if I could but I would not run it with the TVIS mani so a custom intake would at that point be the only logical route. I would probably do a custom mani with single TB if only so I could beat on all the posers with ITBs and not the other proper supporting mods. But at that point ITBs are about as practical a next step.
Many people have run smallports on TVIS ECUs with no issues but since you are already planning engine management it's not much of a concern anyway.

But then this all takes us back to that question of whether you are going to spend $3k for a 150 hp build or $5k for a 160 HP build just because you buy a bunch of things that you want but don't really need. Or do you step it up, pay $6k and just aim for bigger cams, higher compression and make a build that actually starts to take advantage of those other mods?

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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby burdickjp » Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:47 am

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:I would probably do a custom mani with single TB if only so I could beat on all the posers with ITBs and not the other proper supporting mods. But at that point ITBs are about as practical a next step.


The benefits of ITBs require quite a lot of testing and tuning. If that's available they can provide another avenue for tuning performance by changing the intake runner length. It really doesn't matter what else is done to the engine, ITBs can help, but usually there are other things which can help more for less investment.

If hours of tuning, data logging, and parts changing don't sound like fun to you, then don't worry about them, yet.

A good path could be: get an ECU and tune it on your current engine. This lets you ditch the AFM.
Switch to the built engine with the bigport manifold using a bigport/smallport adapter. Tune on it.
Some time down the road you can switch to ITBs.

This whole concept that you need certain other mods to "support" ITBs is hogwash. Properly sized and tuned ITBs can benefit any performance engine. Just like anything else, there are things which are less expensive which will benefit more. If the ITBs and velocity stacks are not sized right or the ECU is not tuned right then of course they aren't of any benefit, but those things are not difficult.
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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:17 am

burdickjp wrote:
This whole concept that you need certain other mods to "support" ITBs is hogwash. Properly sized and tuned ITBs can benefit any performance engine. Just like anything else, there are things which are less expensive which will benefit more. If the ITBs and velocity stacks are not sized right or the ECU is not tuned right then of course they aren't of any benefit, but those things are not difficult.



It may not be so much that you need supporting mods to benefit at all from them but that's exactly my point.
If you have a stock 4AGE you can spend a grand converting your motor to ITBs to gain 1% power or you could put $600 towards cams to gain 25% power. Sure you would benefit from those ITBs but how much? You would also benefit about as much from a custom mani that was sized properly.
At a point after you have knocked out all the low hanging fruit there would be a point where ITBs would be your best bang for the buck or $/hp mod but it would be after a lot of other stuff was knocked out and the motor was already making a lot of power. Even then a properly sized manifold would give you the vast majority of that. Yes you can change ITB runner length easily but you could do the same with a mani with spacer plates. After trying to defend every other reason for switching to ITBs people always fall back on throttle response. And this is a benefit of ITBs. If you race in a series where milliseconds could actually change the outcome of the race.
It's not that I don't appreciate the benefits of ITBs it's just that they are so over played, over hyped and misunderstood that it's almost uncool to run them unless you absolutely need them.

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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby burdickjp » Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:42 am

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:Yes you can change ITB runner length easily but you could do the same with a mani with spacer plates.


You can get quite a bit more range of length with ITBs than a manifold and the iteration process is much easier.

A big disadvantage to ITBs with many engines is the bore pitch never lines up with the throttle pitch. The 20V having come with ITBs means the bore pitch is correct when adapting to the 16V. This and the fact that the fuel injector pockets are in the head rather than manifold makes the 16V 4A almost the least expensive engine to adapt ITBs to.

While planning a build, up front cost is but one consideration.

Start with what you'd like your end-state goal to be and plan how to get there in steps. Consider cost, time, effort, and how easy it makes getting to the next step.

Keep flexible. You'll likely end up somewhere a bit different than you intended from the outset and if you plan it out right you should keep from backpedaling or spending more money than you would've otherwise.
For instance, if you're doing a smallport head you'd have to purchase some kind of adapter to use the TVIS manifold, which you'd end up removing for ITBs. You'd have to weigh the ease of the single throttle manifold versus the cost of the adapter which you'd be later removing.
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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:05 am

Image

burdickjp wrote:
oldeskewltoy wrote:stock to stock there is a tiny difference in the low rpm power band, but for all the possible gains... there are far greater chances of problems because you mixed - smallport head on largeport electronics, and smallport to largeport adapter so you can run the stock intake manifold (smallport never had a rwd intake manifold)


That's what a megasquirt and ITBs are for. Getting there isn't easy, but there are paths.


You (and yoshi) seem to forget the OP.....(I'm trying not too... ) none of us know his mechanical ability, or his mechanical aptitude... or his willingness to complete his project

Many failed 4AGE projects all over the world, most because of the lack of aptitude/ability to build a real engine. A great example of the opposite... a customer of yoshi's... MR2tailbreaker - (http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=468649) has the willingness to work at, and document all his efforts. His determination sits at the other end of the project spectrum.

I remember being 16, and trying to "rebuild" my friends 200 6cyl in his 63 Falcon wagon. "We" all though we knew so much... after all we all had read all the magazines, and saw all the shiney "performance" parts available.... what a joke. None of us knew what a ridge reamer was... and we destroyed his 200 6 because of it.


My point here is we (yoshi, burdick, me) should be gauging the OP (or any OP who asks how to build his engine) ability, and desire to have it finished... and then helping him build as much as he can and still get it finished.

Image
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Re: N/A Build! Need Assistance

Postby allencr » Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:34 pm

I appreciate all y'alls KSA's & writing ability, shame I can't stand wading through all this piss.

oldeskewltoy wrote:My point here is we (yoshi, burdick, me) should be gauging the OP (or any OP who asks how to build his engine) ability, and desire to have it finished... and then helping him build as much as he can and still get it finished.



THANKS!
Well done, but it's about 6 pages too late.