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Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control module
Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:03 pm
by yoshimitsuspeed
Would there be much interest in a sequential spark control module for COP on 4AGEs?
I have someone who is interested in making these but we are trying to figure out what kind of demand there would be.
The module would be around $200. That doesn't include the COPs or other supporting hardware. We would hope for it to be fairly plug and play.
If you would be interested in this but don't know when you would buy just post up. If you are a for sure and want to be notified if/when this is available then let me know and I will add you to the list.
We are talking about making both a module that would work for the NA 16v dizzy and one for the GZE and 20v dizzies.
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 6:33 am
by MisterJerk
What all would be needed for this? for a 16v 4age
Module
COPs
Aftermarket ECU?
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:02 am
by yoshimitsuspeed
MisterJerk wrote:What all would be needed for this? for a 16v 4age
Module
COPs
Aftermarket ECU?
This module gives you the ability to run the COP on the stock ECU sequentially.
As far as benefits go the main one will be for longitudinal 20v swaps who want to keep the stock ECU. This allows you to go COP and will be cheaper, cleaner and better than a dizzy relocation.
On the 16v the only real benefit would be for someone who wanted to clean up or change the look of their engine bay without going aftermarket engine management. There wouldn't be any performance gain aside from not needing to replace old dying spark plug wires. I don't see the demand being nearly as big here but this is partially why we are trying to gauge interest. Unfortunately the NA dizzy and ignition operation is different enough that it would need a module designed specifically for that and I'm not sure there would be the demand.
The other module would work on at least the GZE, the 20v and the 3SGTE as well as others I'm sure.
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:08 am
by oldeskewltoy
So... for $200.00 you can avoid the dizzy relocation headaches..........
sounds like a winner to me.... especially if it is plug and play.... What are ther odds it works with the silvertop ecu???
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:51 am
by yoshimitsuspeed
I think hpmaxim is moving forward with the working prototype.
oldeskewltoy wrote:So... for $200.00 you can avoid the dizzy relocation headaches..........
sounds like a winner to me.... especially if it is plug and play.... What are ther odds it works with the silvertop ecu???
Should work fine with any ignition system that uses the same dizzy triggerwheel setup as the GZE, 20v, 3SGTE etc.
Of course there could be issues that I am not currently aware of but the main focus would be making sure it worked on the 20 valves.
I'd still rather go BT though lol. I won't swap a motor I can't find a FSM to.
Just look at the issues people have when their ST AFM goes out since there are no specs, no test procedures to see if other AFMs might work, nothin.
ST AFMs are plug n pray.
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 10:32 am
by sirdeuce
Sounds like a good idea! Would it still be necessary to keep the distributor as your crank trigger? IIs the proposed module simply a trigger for an ignitor, or will it fire the coils directly? Will the timing be fixed or capable of individual adjustment? I would definitely be interested if the unit could be used with the USDM EFI. Yeah, stuck here in CA and not motivated to change a lot every 2 years, getting too old for that.
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 10:38 am
by sirdeuce
If the distributor is being kept as the crank/cam sensor will a cover be available to replace the distributor cap? A nice low profile cover would be nice! Would look like the S/C cam sensor.
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:10 am
by yoshimitsuspeed
Yes dizzy would be used as cam sensor and blanking caps would be available.
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 1:03 pm
by sirdeuce
Sweet! Timeframe??
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 2:41 pm
by yoshimitsuspeed
sirdeuce wrote:Sweet! Timeframe??
I am hoping to at least have a timeframe in the next couple weeks.
The guy who is doing the electrical engineering is doing the research right now and is hoping to come up with the working prototype soon. Once that happens it will be much easier to give a more accurate price and timeframe.
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 6:25 pm
by sirdeuce
I'll be watching!
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 10:49 am
by Deuce Cam
This sounds great, especially for the 20v folks.
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 12:17 pm
by harobikr444
id be interested if there is a version to get rid of the dizzy all together, wont have to worry about it leaking anymore lol
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 1:27 pm
by yoshimitsuspeed
harobikr444 wrote:id be interested if there is a version to get rid of the dizzy all together, wont have to worry about it leaking anymore lol
This setup would require the dizzy unless you could figure out a way to make a crank trigger wheel that mimicked the stock dizzy.
I am sure a module could be made that used a traditional trigger wheel but it wouldn't be worth it since at that point most people would go aftermarket engine management anyway which would be my suggestion to you.
I am developing a new crank pulley with an integrated trigger wheel and a sensor that will be hidden behind the timing cover.
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 11:17 pm
by chi-town
So why not use the crank timing sprocket like the later obd 2 4afe?
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:51 am
by yoshimitsuspeed
chi-town wrote:So why not use the crank timing sprocket like the later obd 2 4afe?
I haven't checked but I assume it outputs a different signal in which case it would not work with the stock ECU.
It would also require you to use the 4AF, 7AF oil pump which is the lower volume pump. If you are doing a performance build you would want to stay with the high volume pump. Even on a normal build I would have a hard time reducing the volume of the oil pump.
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:31 am
by allencr
I believe most aftermarket ECUs could use the flywheel since you should be able to tell it how many teeth you are using.
The only downside is you would need another sensor on a trigger wheel that gave the ECU a TDC/rotation reference.
For example a traditional trigger wheel like a 36/1 has 35 teeth and one missing. The 35 teeth gives the ECU fine resolution and control as the crank spins but it needs the missing tooth to give it a starting point reference to base timing off of. If you use a primary trigger wheel that has no missing teeth, just like the stock distributors you need a second trigger wheel and sensor that has one tooth to give the ECU it's cam/crank angle reference.
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 11:44 am
by yoshimitsuspeed
Holy crap I hit edit instead of quote and it let me edit your post when I thought I was responding to it haha.
I'll let the mods know.
allencr you should re edit your post with the original question.
Here is my reply.
I believe most aftermarket ECUs could use the flywheel since you should be able to tell it how many teeth you are using.
The only downside is you would need another sensor on a trigger wheel that gave the ECU a TDC/rotation reference.
For example a traditional trigger wheel like a 36/1 has 35 teeth and one missing. The 35 teeth gives the ECU fine resolution and control as the crank spins but it needs the missing tooth to give it a starting point reference to base timing off of. If you use a primary trigger wheel that has no missing teeth, just like the stock distributors you need a second trigger wheel and sensor that has one tooth to give the ECU it's cam/crank angle reference.
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 11:46 am
by yoshimitsuspeed
Lol just realized I got promoted to moderator
Didn't know that happened. With great power comes new responsibility
to not hit the wrong buttons.
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 12:21 pm
by harobikr444
since i live in California and my engine is pretty much stock (4agze) i dont see any reason to go standalone with tuning, a wide band, and ecu it would probably be close to 1000, and ive never tuned an ecu before.if you can possibly make a setup using a cam/crank crank sensor and get rid of the dizzy for a similar price i would definitely get one. I think there would be other people interested as well to get rid of the dizzy as it is pretty common for it to leak
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 1:46 pm
by yoshimitsuspeed
harobikr444 wrote:since i live in California and my engine is pretty much stock (4agze) i dont see any reason to go standalone with tuning, a wide band, and ecu it would probably be close to 1000, and ive never tuned an ecu before.if you can possibly make a setup using a cam/crank crank sensor and get rid of the dizzy for a similar price i would definitely get one. I think there would be other people interested as well to get rid of the dizzy as it is pretty common for it to leak
If you rebuilt the dizzy it should last another 20 years before leaking again.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/products/16 ... ebuild-kit
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 3:27 pm
by sirdeuce
Yeah Yoshi, don't hit the wrong buttons! Especially stay away from the RED button!
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 3:40 pm
by sirdeuce
Problem with making a crank triggered system that works with the stock ECU would be the need for 2 sensors. Giving the 2:1 crank/cam ratio you would need 14 or 2 triggers on the crank. 14 trigger sources for the 28 in the distributor and 2 for the 4. Then the difficult part, only reporting 1 of the 2 signals for the Ne signal, since you would need that separately from the G+ signal. So, for the stock ECU the distributor would be the more feasible option.
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 7:57 pm
by Moto_Club4AG
yoshimitsuspeed wrote:Lol just realized I got promoted to moderator
Didn't know that happened. With great power comes new responsibility
to not hit the wrong buttons.
My fault
oops
Merry Christmas
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:01 pm
by chi-town
Ultra uses a second trigger mounted on the front of the exhaust cam in their setup.
You could also mount a second trigger wheel in place of the distributor rotor and then mount the pick up in a billet distributor cover. Use the original coil signal as main crank trigger then a 24-1 on the rotor mount to stimulate cam. Since you're not looking for a misfire indicator there is no reason to mount the sensor on the crank.
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:21 am
by death_blossom
I'd be interested in this product. How would it look? I currently have a 20v swap using COPS, so how would this change my set up as far as wiring goes?
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:00 pm
by yoshimitsuspeed
death_blossom wrote:I'd be interested in this product. How would it look? I currently have a 20v swap using COPS, so how would this change my set up as far as wiring goes?
We are hoping it will be pretty plug and play. Details are still in the making but the general idea is a small module that replaces the coil and ignitor and would wire in similarly.
Hopefully just unplug coil and ignitor and plug in the new module. There may be a little more involved than that but it should be pretty simple.
Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control module
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:34 pm
by Moto_Club4AG
yoshimitsuspeed wrote:death_blossom wrote:I'd be interested in this product. How would it look? I currently have a 20v swap using COPS, so how would this change my set up as far as wiring goes?
We are hoping it will be pretty plug and play. Details are still in the making but the general idea is a small module that replaces the coil and ignitor and would wire in similarly.
Hopefully just unplug coil and ignitor and plug in the new module. There may be a little more involved than that but it should be pretty simple.
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:48 pm
by shagymc
Will this allow you to tune or will it still be wasted spark just without the ignitor and coil? As it stands, I'd be interested for sure
Re: Gauging interest in a sequential spark COP control modul
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:52 pm
by yoshimitsuspeed
shagymc wrote:Will this allow you to tune or will it still be wasted spark just without the ignitor and coil? As it stands, I'd be interested for sure
It would not be tunable. The timing would be completely controlled by the stock ECU. It would just be sequential spark instead of wasted.