renamed: crazy oil leak from Valve Cover?

[SgtRauksauff]

So, the 4AC in my 86 coupe puts out blue smoke like crazy. Doesn't start until it's warmed up, and doesn't start smoking until maintaining speed. As soon as I hit the gas, it blows the smoke out, and runs clean again, until i start decelerating.

I thought that it might be a HG, and hoped it was just stem seals.

Pulled the plugs, and three were just fine, with the exception of plug #1, which looked like this:


Turned it to TDC, and did a leakdown test on cyl 1 and 4. Only dropped one psi over about 5 minutes. To me, that means rings are great, and valves are great.

Ran a pressure test on the cooling system, also didn't drop after about 5 min.

So, seeing cylinder 1 plug like that, and no real drop in pressure during a leakdown or coolant pressure test, I don't think the culprit is the HG.

Basically, some new valve stem seals and I'm good to go, I think.

Does this sound like a proper diagnosis, or is there something else I should test?

Thanks,

--sarge

[s24a]

Sarge...

Also might want to check your PCV valve and hose to make sure you are not pulling oil into the intake through that system.
I have seen a stuck open PCV valve that gives similar symptoms to what you are showing (less the hard cold start).


H. Dozier

[jondee86]

I can't believe that plug was still firing. It is soaked in oil
and/or gas, and I would be surprised if stem seals alone could do that.

Cheers... jondee86

[SgtRauksauff]

hmm... you know, the PCV is a good tip, thanks s24a!! I hadn't actually thought of that, but I bet you are absolutely correct. I need to track down some other issues, as the car wasn't even running when I got it.. but the PCV valve hose goes directly into the runner for cylinder #1. This thing is actually fitted with a Weber 32/36, and I saw an old post on facebook by the previous owner mentioning a .60 jet.

Here's a snap of the top of the engine bay:



One annoying thing about the painted valve cover, they didn't bother to mask off the oil fill hole, so the little baffle when filling is also covered in the oh-so-beautiful gold paint.

Looking at that picture, the PCV valve goes right to the runner for cylinder 1, so that's an easy-peasy fix, and maybe that stem seal is actually fine: just grab a new PCV and see what happens. The open hole with a hose fitting on the top of the VC is supposed to go to the carb / air cleaner, if I'm not mistaken. I really kind of wonder though, would a stuck PCV really push that volume of oil through the intake, to look like I'm cropdusting big-time when driving the road?

I need to order a gasket kit for the weber also, because I think the accelerator pump isn't quite working right, there's some pretty bad delay on throttle tip-in, and it might be masking a vacuum leak, which would prevent distributor timing advance, which could also cause some wierdness (when I pull the distributor vacuum hose, nothing changes, warm or cold.)

So, for tomorrow: PVC valve, new plug(s) and see what happens!

--sarge

[totta crolla]

Sorry to say that it sounds like oil control rings are worn or if you are lucky just sticking, shows all of the symptoms. A compression test won't show faults with oil control rings.
Blue smoke after standing overnight is typical of valve stem seals as the oil runs down the valve stem onto the top of the piston.

[davew7]

Sounds like the PCV. A 10 second check. Pull the hose off the intake & cap the manifold fitting . Drive it.
Dave W

[SgtRauksauff]

I've got the distributor off because the O-ring was leaking, and I took the valve cover off to see if it looked nasty under there. The grommets were pretty much toast, so I've got to get some new ones before I start it again and drive it. PCV valve looks new, and it passes the shake and the blow/suck test (lol) although there is definitely oil dripping out of that hose.

I'm also not really pleased with the reduced diameter of the PCV hose, it seems a couple sizes too small, judging by the nipple on the first intake runner, compared to what I see of the PCV port on the 'fuel heater' in pictures.

Under the Valve Cover:




doesn't look too bad, actually.

Now that the Oil Control rings were brought up....
The PCV hose goes to intake runner for cylinder #1.
ONLY cylinder #1 had any dirty gunk at all on the spark plug.

If the PCV valve was toasted at one time, and just dumping a bunch of oil into only runner #1, would that dirty burning affect the oil control ring just in cylinder #1? As in, get it gunked-up/siezed/stuck a bit too, and exacerbate the problem?

I've read about a technique that some miata guys do to recover from stuck oil control rings that sometimes works:
Drain oil and save it, leave the oil plug out.
Put a 50/50 mix of ATF/Acetone through the spark plug hole into the combustion chamber of a warm engine, enough to just cover the piston.
Let sit for two hours, put the oil back in, drive it to see if it helped.
possibly repeat a total of three times; if no change after 3 times, time to re-ring (or change engines).

Thoughts?

I've got a spare 4AC (from an '84, straight valve cover) that I'm hoping to salvage the grommets from, and maybe even the distributor o-ring. Since this never happens until the car's really warmed up, I'm going to take off the water pump belt, open the radiator cap, and fire it up. I hope to NOT see any bubbles coming out, if they are, there is a HG problem that only occurs when it's hot enough.

Sounds like a lot of PITA work just for a lowly 4AC, but with all the other constraints on my time and money (mostly time) lately, I'm trying to get this car driveable so I can enjoy it, while getting other projects finished, so I have time to move my GT-S drivetrain into this car properly, and not in a rushed/crappy manner.

--sarge

[s24a]

I'd try driving it with the PCV blocked off to see if any affect is made there. Put the valve cover dump into a can or bottle while you drive to catch the contents that come out to see if maybe oil splash and a missing baffle could be part of the cause?

Also, that PCV tube sound to be too small, which can increase the velocity in the line and possibly overpower the PCV spring/mass of the valve.
So do change that.

You also need to look at the PCV valve itself and make sure its the correct part, and just something that fits.
If the tube is wrong, maybe also the valve.

The ATF/Acetone trick might be a good secondary treatment. I would put the plug back in the cylinder after you pour it in so the acetone doesn't evaporate too quickly.

Let us know what you find....

H. Dozier

[SgtRauksauff]

Well then. I should've been more patient. chalk it up to spring fever.

I put the valve cover back on (not using any sort of sealant) and used the grommets from my other 4ac, and after not starting, spun the distributor 180° to fix the install problem (when I'd first set to TDC, I just went by the crank pulley, not by the cam mark. When I put the distributor back in, well, it was 180° off, lol!)

so, I fixed the distributor, and fixed the messed-up vacuum lines that were going to the distributor (all three ports on the distributor were teed into the Weber timing advance port, all using too-large hose, and zipties to (not actually) tighten them) and plugged the nipple on runner #1, jammed a hose into the PCV grommet, ziptied an empty can to the radiator hose (as far as the PCV hose would reach), made sure the PCV hose wouldn't flail all around, and took it for a spin.

It took awhile, but then right when I was thinking it might turn out ok, it started to smoke a bit more. Still, nowhere NEAR the amount of smoke that I was getting before.

pulled into the driveway, and there was smoke rolling out of the hood. Popped the hood, and there's oil all over the place. I can't tell if it was coming from the fuel filter mounting, Distributor O-ring, the valve cover grommets, or the valve cover gasket, or the other open port on the valve cover (that normally would go into the air filter, for fresh air into the crankcase replacing the nasty air coming out of the crankcase.

inside the empty can though, there was definitely some nasty-gray-slimy looking crud.

At this point, the plan will be to CLEAN EVERYTHING, wait for the new valve cover and grommets to arrive, and make a better catch-can/hose system.

then try it again so I can actually find out where any oil is coming from (i have a strong suspicion it's from the VC and/or grommets, and most of the smoke was from the oil running over the exhaust manifold..


--sarge

[s24a]

Does the oil itself look fairly clean on the valvetrain and on the dipstick? Or does it resemble the catch can crud?
If the oil is filthy, sounds like its time to do an in-situ engine crankcase cleaning.
Put a NEW filter on the engine, and change the oil to something like a 10W-40 or 20W-50 and in place of one quart, use a can of Dextron III ATF.
Drive it several times from cold until warmed up, park it to let it cool, and repeat about 5 or 6 times..
Then drain out the oil and see what it looks like.
This should scrub the inside of the engine pretty good. Use a good (Toyota or WIX) oil filter and change it again after the cleaning session.
Hopefully this will get the major crud off part and the pan and out the drain hole.
Then you just need to do the usual maintenance the P.O. must not have cared to do.....

But doesn't sound like valve guides and most likely not oil control rings...

H. Dozier

[SgtRauksauff]

Did NOT look crusty under the valve cover, as seen in the photos above (click to enlarge). dipstick seems clean, and even the oil that leaked everywhere seemed clean. Just the stuff coming out of the PVC hose looked dirty. I've already decided to do that exact thing with the oil, I had a whole thing typed up on what I was gonna do, then decided, "stay on topic, this isn't a build log!" lol so deleted it.

The oil and filter in it is basically brand new, the only running it's done is to get it running after I bought it, and about 10 miles of test driving. It's just 5w-30 dino oil, but I'll check the level, and swap in some thicker and some ATF just to do it.

--Jorden

[SgtRauksauff]

Finally found some time to work on it, so here's an update:

I put in a new valve cover gasket and grommets, plumbed in the PCV > catchcan > dump to the ground. Stuck a mini-filter on the 'intake' valve cover vent, and drove to work.



It didn't really smoke until i got close to work, I think all the smoke is because of oil coming out of the vent filter.

Going to plumb that into some sort of container, and then run some added ATF for a bit, and see how that goes.

--sarge

[SgtRauksauff]

Ok, then. I ran a 1/2" inside-diameter hose from the vent nipple to an oil container I had, ziptied it in there, cleaned off the engine, dumped a quart of ATF in, and drove it to work today.



No smoke from the exhaust. No oil spraying anywhere topside. got to work, the container had around 8oz in it. got out of work, drove it home, a little longer journey, maybe 10 miles, I did get on it pretty good a couple of times, but mostly nice and slow. Checked when I got home. still no smoke from anywhere, but the bottle connected to the vent is at the ~30oz mark. That's 22oz of oil in 10 miles. not good at all.

The regular catch-can connected to the PCV valve with 3/8" ID hose and exiting to atmosphere through another hose isn't even a quarter of the way full.

When I had the valve cover off, the inside didn't look odd to me at all like it was missing anything. the stock baffle chamber is riveted on..

It's almost like the crankcase is getting pressurized from the combustion events, but when I did a engine-cold leakdown test (I did NOT do just a regular compression test), every single cylinder held 100psi for a couple minutes, all dropping by 3-4 psi after the same amount of time. I believe that when warm, it should hold even better, because thermal expansion. So I don't think that the oil is coming out because of bad compression rings. Or, am I way off base? no bubbles from the radiator, or noise from the oil fill hole when holding the pressure, so I don't think the HG is bad. Did a pressure test to 15psi on the radiator, it held for 5 minutes with no dip. Oil is not chocolate milk, is actually a little darker now that I added the ATF (pulling in deposits with the detergents, is my thought.)

If the oil control rings were REALLY bad, oil would be getting into the combustion chamber, and I'd be burning oil as well as fuel, giving me smoke out the tailpipe, correct? No smoke after hard accel, no smoke after gentle steady-state driving, no smoke after engine braking from 4th all the way to a stop.

Do I just dump the overflow, add more clean oil, and keep driving it the 5-miles to work, maybe do the Marvel Mystery Oil treatment to the top of the pistons, and/or the Acetone/ATF treatment?

I don't want to block off the PCV or vent, because if there's a lot of pressure, it'll just push a main seal out and make for a very bad day.\


Tips/Advice/Helpful comments requested.... thanks for spending the time!

--sarge

[SgtRauksauff]

another quick update, just ran an actual compression test, engine cool enough to touch, but still warm:

Cyl1: 174psi
Cyl2: 180psi
Cyl3: 174psi
Cyl4:175PSI

Another pic of all four spark plugs, since the PCV valve was no longer put on runner one of the intake manifold: One through four, left to right. I did NOT put new plugs in before, I just cleaned it with a rag and Brake Cleaner.



Might even be a bit lean, but that should be taken care of when I yank the carb off and put on the rebuild kit that I bought, when I have time. But it seems to be fairly decent burn, dry, no oil or wetness.

So it comes down to, wtf is causing oil to hemorrhage out of the valve cover? Is it like totta crolla said in the beginning, oil control rings? I would think bad Oil Control Rings would allow the car to BURN oil, causing smoke.

This is not the case: I am pushing oil out of the valve cover, that seems like a pressurized crankcase, but compression and leakdown tests show good compression rings (as far as I understand).

HG is not blown from what I know because there's no oil in the coolant, no coolant in the oil, and nothing from the radiator pressure test. Not valve guides because no smoke on startup.

So here's me being stumped.

[s24a]

When you had the valve cover off, did you notice a lot of oil in the head, or was it fairly dry (thin coat on surfaces)?
If there was a lot of oil, wonder if the drainbacks to the sump from the head are partially blocked.
That would cause major oil splash and pushover from the vent.
Might also explain the continued issue you stated you had with the valve cover gasket leaking.

Hank Dozier

[SgtRauksauff]

It didn't seem over-full of oil, when I had the cover off:
click to enlarge:




I thought it looked normal, a little pooling where there wasn't a drainback, but I didn't consider it over-full.

after I replaced the valve cover gasket, i had the same sort of leakage, what I thought had been from the gasket was actually from the vent at the top of the cover. There may have been some from the gasket, because it was getting close to hard/brittle, but it still had some elasticity to it. I'm glad I put the new one on, though, for sure.

I've actually got a really sweet camera on the way, it's an endoscope type camera, that plugs into my phone, with a 3.5m cable on it. LED's at the end, so I might just poke it down the drainback holes when it comes in, to see what I can see.

I'm going to keep driving it to work (5 miles) the next couple days with some ATF inside, and maybe try the ATF/Acetone thing tomorrow night.

--sarge

[jondee86]

The regular catch-can connected to the PCV valve with 3/8" ID hose and exiting
to atmosphere through another hose isn't even a quarter of the way full.

Your PCV will not be working if it is plumbed how you say. The PCV is designed to work
with manifold vacuum sucking gases thru the valve. The flow increases as engine rpm
goes up and manifold vacuum goes down... the faster you go, the more it sucks

You need to plumb the catchcan back to a source of manifold vacuum to get the PCV
working how it should. Don't know what effect this will have on the oil blowing out
the vent tube, but it will narrow things down a little.

Cheers... jondee86

[allencr]

...some miata guys do to recover from stuck oil control rings that sometimes works:
Drain oil and save it, leave the oil plug out.
Put a 50/50 mix of ATF/Acetone through the spark plug hole into the combustion chamber of a warm engine, enough to just cover the piston.
Let sit for two hours, put the oil back in, drive it to see if it helped.
possibly repeat a total of three times; if no change after 3 times, time to re-ring (or change engines).

My thoughts?
One of the dumbest Fing automotive trick things I've ever read, not that it's useless, the acetone might help, but draining the oil and thinking that 4oz of acetone is like some abrasive cancer that wouldn't contaminate the engine if the pan's empty but would when full is just plain stupid. Stuff'll cook off in a short while, besides mostly evaporating & ejected from the plug hole when cranked.
Also, the ATF isn't poison either, leave it till next change if you expect it to do much good.

[SgtRauksauff]

The regular catch-can connected to the PCV valve with 3/8" ID hose and exiting
to atmosphere through another hose isn't even a quarter of the way full.

Your PCV will not be working if it is plumbed how you say. The PCV is designed to work
with manifold vacuum sucking gases thru the valve. The flow increases as engine rpm
goes up and manifold vacuum goes down... the faster you go, the more it sucks

You need to plumb the catchcan back to a source of manifold vacuum to get the PCV
working how it should. Don't know what effect this will have on the oil blowing out
the vent tube, but it will narrow things down a little.

Cheers... jondee86

I understand that; this is basically in Troubleshooting Mode right now. When the PCV hose was connected to the intake manifold (albeit only in runner #1, not optimal) it was burning oil like a crop duster out of the tailpipe. I left the VC vent open, rather than connecting it to the air cleaner nipple, because I didn't have the correct hose at the time. Nothing much happened when I was getting the car running. When I actually took it for a 5+ mile drive was when it started with the smoke and oil on top of the VC.

Old PCV valve was fine, but I put in a new one, with new hose to the catch can, and vented to atmosphere. I think the PCV valve still inline is more of a restriction than the 1/2" open hose from the other vent that's allowing the massive amount of oil from the VC. I'm on the hunt for a tap for the hole on the end of the manifold (where the egr went), so I can run from PCV valve -> hose -> catchcan -> hose -> Manifold. That will take care of the normal vacuum needed for PCV operation.

However, that's still not going to solve the problem of a quart of oil getting pumped out in a 15-mile drive, even WITHOUT any vacuum. It will just re-introduce that volume of oil back to the intake manifold and start smoking like crazy again.

I almost wonder if a previous owner didn't put a head gasket on wrong, so it *almost* lines up, but oil returns are blocked or something. Wouldn't suprise me if the stupid gold paint somehow got in there either. my first 4AGE was ruined because the previous owner had used RTV to help seal the head gasket. squished out and blocked the 1/4" or smaller hole that feeds the entire upper end, so who knows wtf was done to this engine....

My thoughts?
One of the dumbest Fing automotive trick things I've ever read, not that it's useless, the acetone might help, but draining the oil and thinking that 4oz of acetone is like some abrasive cancer that wouldn't contaminate the engine if the pan's empty but would when full is just plain stupid. Stuff'll cook off in a short while, besides mostly evaporating & ejected from the plug hole when cranked.
Also, the ATF isn't poison either, leave it till next change if you expect it to do much good.

hehe.. yeah, I raised an eyebrow at the whole drain/refill thing. Maybe it's so you can keep re-using your oil, just flush the drainback and pan, and not worry about just how bad Acetone could be.. nice security blanket, right? I'm more interested in the cleaning/loosening properties of the Acetone, myself.

[jondee86]

However, that's still not going to solve the problem of a quart of oil getting pumped
out in a 15-mile drive, even WITHOUT any vacuum. It will just re-introduce that volume
of oil back to the intake manifold and start smoking like crazy again.

Not quite. If you plumb the catchcan back to a manifold vacuum source, you should
get more oil in the catchcan and less out the vent.

Assuming that your cam cover has the usual shield inside to stop oil being flung
directly into the vent/PCV openings, there are really only two possibilities that
I can think of that would cause so much oil to be blown out of the engine.

The first is that the engine has excessive blowby. If the rings are good, this is
unlikely, but you can check by seeing how much fume gets blown out the vent
when you rev the engine. If it feels like an air hose blowing on your hand, then
it is excessive.

The second is if there is far to much oil accumulating in the head. This would
require something to be restricting the oil from draining back to the sump. I'm
not sure if over-filling the sump would cause oil to back up in the head, but I have
read of engines having the wrong dipstick (too short) which leads to over-filling.

Cheers... jondee86

[SgtRauksauff]

I'll have to check the dipstick length against the one in my other 4AC, it crossed my mind once, but I never took any action on it.

I found an NPT 3/8" tap for the EGR hole in the manifold, and picked up a 3/8"MIP-to-3/8" hose nipple. (MIP = Male Iron Pipe, NPT = National/Nominal Pipe Thread, they're the same, for those who aren't familiar). So I'll tap and plumb the return line from the catchcan tonight.

I'm going to take the valve cover off again and see what I can see down the oil return places as soon as my endoscope camera gets here (maybe even today, if I'm lucky!) I talked to the previous owner, he said everything was actually running well, and then suddenly started burning oil and leaving pools of oil. I almost wonder if a chunk of paint from the gross-gold valvecover didn't lodge itself somewhere. doesn't look like they masked anything.

--sarge

[SgtRauksauff]

no endoscope, but I checked it out anyway. two smaller oil returns at each end of the head are clean and unobstructed all the way to their turn-int at the sump. The middle one (which i assume is the vent channel, since it goes all the way up to the alve cover) is also un-obstructed; I can see oil sitting in the pan from the proper angle.

click to enlarge:

The valve cover inside seems to be fine; I've never seen another, but the rivets aren't broken and the baffles seem to be intact.


So, I tapped the hole, almost too deep, but a few wraps of PTFE tape and snugging it all the way in worked out ok. If I have a problem with it leaking, maybe I'll put a bit of JB weld on the threads, screw it back in, and seal it permanently.




I also made a video the night before, attempting to show the amount of oil coming out of the valve cover vent. About 4oz in a 4-minute video. Seems to be a frickin' lot to me.
https://youtu.be/hSJsdxktdLk
only had little drips, then raised engine speed, still only drips. As soon as I let off the gas, it started a bigger stream. I didn't check for blowing air (blowby) at the time, but I can do that today when I get the carb put back on, and the catch-can plumbed into the nipple.

--sarge

[s24a]

Not that it might make a difference, but is that carburetor stock or an aftermarket type?

Hank Dozier

[allencr]

Something is different or missing, just about Zero amount of oil should come out of the valve cover vent/s, cause Toyota spent some time & $ to baffle it so nothing getting flung/splashed from the cam & rockers would get out, blowby or not, but yours seems to have a direct line spewing that kinda quantity.
Any chance the baffle was put in upside down? Blew up the pic 200% and its rivets & sheetmetal look untouched.
Sorry, IDK.

[jondee86]

When strange things start happening, it is necessary to start looking for
unusual causes... so don't take this the wrong way But did you take a
quart of oil out of the pan before you dumped a quart of ATF into the pan ?

Because if you did not, the pan would be over-filled with an oil mixture
that has a lower viscosity than straight engine oil. This most likely would
allow the crank to touch the oil in the sump and whip it into foam. And if
this was happening, you would be likely to get a lot of aerated oil inside
the cam cover. Without the PCV system operating, some of this will find
its way out of the vent.

Just a theory at this stage, but I would be interested to know what happens
if you put the correct amount of fresh oil in the sump (no ATF added) and
hook the PCV system up to manifold vacuum.

Cheers... jondee86

[SgtRauksauff]

The carburetor is a Weber 32/36 DGV (it was with the car when I got it.) so, not stock.

After testing it back and forth to work with no apparent issues, I dumped in clean 10w30 and a new filter. Started driving , got about 7-8 miles away, and started cropdusting like crazy. turned around, went home, parked it, got into a different car.

today, checked it out.. the catch can was full, oil was apparent on the PCV valve, and inside the nipple in the manifold, and I also took out a plug, and it was wet with oil.

So, causes of too much oil in the head:
1: blowby, caused by piston ring failure. compression tests fine, and leakdown test shows great, so that indicates that rings are not an issue.

2: Oil Control Rings being bad would allow oil into the combustion event, and be smoking all the time. this does not happen, the oil is introduced to the combustion event through the PCV system. The PCV valve is a new proper replacement, and is routed to the manifold with the same size nipple as the PCV valve is.

Is there an oil galley plug somewhere that's allowing the head to get full of oil?

Is there something involving the oil pump, perhaps a relief valve spring modification or failure, that could cause an additional amount of oil to be pumped to the head?

Is the camshaft oil exit metered at all, and this metering failed causing excessive flow, so the pressure is staying adequate, but filling the head and failing to drain?

From my understanding, liquid oil has to be full to the top of the valve cover for it to find its way into the baffle and come out in this quantity.


Can it still be compression rings, even though compression and leakdown tests indicate otherwise?

argh! this is a tricky diagnosis!

[jondee86]

When the car is smoking real bad, stop, leave the engine running and
quickly take a look inside the oil filler. Rev the engine up... maybe that
will give you a clue as to what is going on ?

I don't know how much spray will come out of the filler, so have a shop
towel in your other hand

Cheers... jondee86

[SgtRauksauff]

HOLY CRAP!!!

I think i may have found a thing....

pulled the VC OFF of the 1984 engine, to see if I could find differences or notice something.

Here's the valve cover for the 1984, straight-side valve cover:
look at that beautiful baffle!


And, here's the valve cover for the 1986, bumpy-side valve cover, that's pouring oil out the PCV system:


see the difference? Here's a close-up on the "bad" one



I'm pretty sure the "Flaps" are smashed flat, which does not allow any liquid to drip back down. so the vacuum from the PCV just pulls it right out and into the system!!

I'm going to make a gap straightaway, throw it back together, take it for a test drive, and hope it's clean enough that I can meet my friends in my awesome Corolla for dinner in one hour!!

as an aside.. do you know how hard it is to find a picture of the INSIDE of a 4AC valve cover on the internet? I know of three right now, they're just above.....

--sarge

[jondee86]

Well done Most people would have burned the car to the ground by now !!

Cheers... jondee86

[SgtRauksauff]

WINNING!!!!!!!!!!!

That was it! Pried open the flaps, slapped on the valve cover, plumbed the PCV valve directly to the nipple in the EGR-hole in the manifold, so it would start puking oil into the intake tract ASAP. NOT ONE SINGLE PUFF OF SMOKE FROM THE EXHAUST!!!!!

I am super-stoked, because I can DRIVE the thing now, and work out the suspension kinks, and drive the car, and actually drive the car!

I retrospectively find myself vacuous for not looking inside the other valve cover sooner. d'0h!!

Thanks for all the input and provoking of my thoughts!

--sarge