Still building 7AGEs?

sirdeuce
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Still building 7AGEs?

Postby sirdeuce » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:31 pm

Let's hear about those 7AGEs. I've built a few of these for others, still haven't put mine together, moved several times in the past years. Not hearing much about the 7AGE any more, wondering if people are still doing this hybrid build.
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oldeskewltoy
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Re: Still building 7AGEs?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:00 pm

sirdeuce wrote:Let's hear about those 7AGEs. I've built a few of these for others, still haven't put mine together, moved several times in the past years. Not hearing much about the 7AGE any more, wondering if people are still doing this hybrid build.



There is a facebook group for 7AG builds.... not so uncommon. Arnie and his crew put together a custom 7AGE using a 95.5mm crank :o yes that would make it a true 2 liter... it made just over 304hp, and 190#/ft
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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sirdeuce
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Re: Still building 7AGEs?

Postby sirdeuce » Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:38 pm

Ugh, facebook. I'm a bit of a rare bird these days, I don't do facebook, twatter or snapchit. Not my scene. I keep to small circles. Now, if I could access that piece of facebook without signing my life over to facebook I might consider checking it out.
As for a 2 litre 7AGE I know of a few places that have been doing that for quite some time, like T.E.D Racing components (Canada) and MRP (Australia). Thing is even with the lure of a group of 7AGE enthusiasts I could never join facebook. At least on these sites I don't get a thousand people I want nothing to do with trying to be my "friend". Naw, I'll just melt into oblivion, anonymous and know only to those closest to me thank you.
One shot, one kill.

jinx
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Re: Still building 7AGEs?

Postby jinx » Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:12 pm

4AG traffic on the whole has decreased drasticly, so no surprise there
More than enough 7AG threads worldwide/all over the net..... covers any type build you'd want
I'd imagine a 2.0L would be expensive, yet handicapped by a head with ports & valves sized and designed to feed a 1.6
Still can't hang with any of the cheaper alloy offerings

no facebook here either

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oldeskewltoy
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Re: Still building 7AGEs?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:14 am

jinx wrote:4AG traffic on the whole has decreased drasticly, so no surprise there
More than enough 7AG threads worldwide/all over the net..... covers any type build you'd want
I'd imagine a 2.0L would be expensive, yet handicapped by a head with ports & valves sized and designed to feed a 1.6
Still can't hang with any of the cheaper alloy offerings

no facebook here either


I said nothing about stock (1.6) head........

Image
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: Still building 7AGEs?

Postby jinx » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:39 pm

doubt any normally aspirated 'stroker A' build is gonna stay stock head stock cam
add it all up and most will still compare it to other available oe 1.8 & 2.0 options
For diehards, cost probably won't matter

I wish toyota offered a simple compact 2.0L (3SG or Beams, no).
A 'basic' 7AG seems capable enough, on a reasonable budget imo

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oldeskewltoy
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Re: Still building 7AGEs?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:21 am

jinx wrote:doubt any normally aspirated 'stroker A' build is gonna stay stock head stock cam
add it all up and most will still compare it to other available oe 1.8 & 2.0 options
For diehards, cost probably won't matter

I wish toyota offered a simple compact 2.0L (3SG or Beams, no).
A 'basic' 7AG seems capable enough, on a reasonable budget imo


This is one of my points I keep raising about building 7AG's... if you look around at other 1.8 4 valve engines, and compare valve sizes.... many use larger valves, in a few cases even larger then Atlantic valves..., you leave a LOT on the table by running a stock head...

With that said....even a mostly stock one does add a substantial bump in grunt
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

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Re: Still building 7AGEs?

Postby sirdeuce » Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:52 am

I built a 7age with just the stock 4age head. Put the same effort into the head I used as I would any other build, good valve grind and some minor blending in the ports, stock valves. That was back when they were just starting to talk about 7AGE builds. I was pleasantly surprised with the results. The little engine had quite a bit more torque throughout the power band! It did fall off towards the upper RPM range but still pulled well to about 6500RPM. Found I liked it better in my AW11 than in my AE82, the 82 had limited traction and just a little pedal would break the tires loose. That was a great around town and highway engine, low RPM driving and shifting were where it shined! Got better mileage than my 4AGE as well!
I have built a few with stock valves and more extensive port work that would make decent power to 7200RPM and work well with cams as big as HKS's 264/8.1 cams but would kill anything bigger.
Basically, if you are planning a mild build a stock head can make you happy. You can get about the same HP with a 7AGE as a 4AGE with the same mods to the head, but the 7A will do it at lower RPMs. If done right I'd say the 7A could get 150hp with stock valves, just like the 4AGE, but where the 4A will top out torque at 125 @ 5000RPM the 7A will kick out at 135-140lb @4000RPM. I've told people that just using the stock head with the 7A block with 4AGE pistons would be close to 125 HP/TQ where the 4AGE puts 115HP and 98lb torque.
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Re: Still building 7AGEs?

Postby jinx » Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:53 pm

you leave a LOT on the table by running a stock head

but that's the million dollar question. How much is a LOT ? Big valves, porting, cams, etc, only relevant at the crank/tires
No dyno overlays plotting the torque, for a stock head vs modified ? Must exist, with countless 7AG builds.

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Re: Still building 7AGEs?

Postby sirdeuce » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:04 pm

jinx wrote:
you leave a LOT on the table by running a stock head

but that's the million dollar question. How much is a LOT ? Big valves, porting, cams, etc, only relevant at the crank/tires
No dyno overlays plotting the torque, for a stock head vs modified ? Must exist, with countless 7AG builds.



That's one of the problems with the 7AGE builds, no follow up on the builds. Seems noone wants to say how their build is doing. I never posted any of my builds so I'm wondering if it would be worth covering in a post. I have the parts and machining done to build the bottom but need to work a head for it. Just not seeing the interest in my usual haunts quells the desire to post.
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Re: Still building 7AGEs?

Postby Rogue-AE95 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:23 pm

I have a 7AFE longblock that's been sitting in my garage for a few years now. Also have a smallport head, 8.9 GZE pistons, Matrix Garage rods, etc. All of it just waiting on me to finish some other car projects that I ought to finish first. I'd love to get my 3rd car running and out of the garage before starting anything with my 7A build, since my All-Trac wagon is one of my two drivable cars. (I like having a backup, especially since all 3 of my cars are 25 years or older.)

oldeskewltoy wrote:I said nothing about stock (1.6) head........

Image


Holy cow :idea: What size are those? Seeing those oversized valves, and comparing a Honda B series intake valve to a stock 4AGE one on my desk here, makes me think a little more about going with oversized valves for my 7A build. The Honda valve is larger at about 33mm. That same valve diameter size is used for their B16 (1.6l) as well as their B18C (1.8l, GSR & Type R).
'88 Corolla All-Trac

sirdeuce
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Re: Still building 7AGEs?

Postby sirdeuce » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:25 am

Rogue
All depends on what you want from your engine.
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Re: Still building 7AGEs?

Postby Rogue-AE95 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:56 pm

sirdeuce wrote:Rogue
All depends on what you want from your engine.


I had made a topic here a few years ago (link). Basically I'm thinking around 350 crank HP, so that my AWD drivetrain will put down in the range of 250-300 HP. I was hung up on cam choice, and turbo choice. I was looking at the GTX series from Garrett, like the GTX2860R. For cams, OST had recommended some Cat Cams.

I was planning to run the engine NA to break it in, and possibly to keep NA for about a year before it got a turbo. Worse for worse I end up with a fuel map & tuning for a decent NA 7AGE, which I could replicate for another Toyota (like an AW11).
'88 Corolla All-Trac

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Re: Still building 7AGEs?

Postby jinx » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:03 pm

That's one of the problems with the 7AGE builds, no follow up on the builds

Negative. Google 7AG, your head will spin. Tonnnnssss of proven combinations - from street to track

Big valves, porting, Cams.... I've seen isolated cases where any of those actually performed worse than stock!
Stick ONLY to the tried & tested

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Re: Still building 7AGEs?

Postby jinx » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:12 pm

for AWD, a boosted 7AG (stock head/stock cam) will make more torque than you'd know what to do with
A plain old journal bearing T28, T3 or small t3/t4 will do

sirdeuce
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Re: Still building 7AGEs?

Postby sirdeuce » Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:09 pm

jinx wrote:for AWD, a boosted 7AG (stock head/stock cam) will make more torque than you'd know what to do with
A plain old journal bearing T28, T3 or small t3/t4 will do


+1 on that, use the N/A manifold for best results.
My main concern would be your tranny at that output level.
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Re: Still building 7AGEs?

Postby Rogue-AE95 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:11 pm

sirdeuce wrote:
jinx wrote:for AWD, a boosted 7AG (stock head/stock cam) will make more torque than you'd know what to do with
A plain old journal bearing T28, T3 or small t3/t4 will do


+1 on that, use the N/A manifold for best results.
My main concern would be your tranny at that output level.


Thankfully I do have the smallport intake. I was considering sending off the throttle body to Maxbore to open it up a little bit. Then port match the intake to the TB.

Trans is an E series, plenty stout compared to the C series. Though my E is a "narrow gear" and there are "wide gear" ones out there. I was considering making a hybrid using some wide gear trans with my center diff / transfer case and bell housing.

So you guys think I should stick with stock cams? Is there enough of a difference between early and late style cam profiles to bother using one over the other? I have sets of both.
'88 Corolla All-Trac

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Re: Still building 7AGEs?

Postby sirdeuce » Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:43 am

I'd say a set of mild cams would do well enough.

Didn't realize you had an 'E' series trans. That's great!

Not sure a big bore TB would be necessary. The stock TB really does well enough. Didn't experience enough gains with mine. If you do want to ude a big bore TB look into adapting some billet TB to your manifold.
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Re: Still building 7AGEs?

Postby cincybranr » Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:38 am

Love the conversation here and subscribing to this thread! I’m finishing my masters this year so it’s only suspension for me in 2020, but next year I plan to build or have MRP build me a street-able 7ag.
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