opinions on my efi journy

jakes_hachiroku
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opinions on my efi journy

Postby jakes_hachiroku » Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:28 am

Alright guys! just want to hear some opinions about what I should do about ignition control.
So ive sorted out what to run for ecu and harness, but since ive been carb'd ive always run an msd 6al. now that im gunna be EFI should I source an oem ignition control module? would keeping msd in place be easier? how would I make oem ICM work with a microsquirt? IDK lol. like I said ive been drifting with weber carbs for 3 years so this is a new venture for me. Any thoughts are welcome!

Thanks! 8-)

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Re: opinions on my efi journy

Postby jondee86 » Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:39 pm

What ECU are you using.... OEM or aftermarket ?
Is the engine stock or highly modified ?

Stock engine + factory ECU + igniter + coil = all good.
Modified engine + Aftermarket ECU + coils = all good

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: opinions on my efi journy

Postby jakes_hachiroku » Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:46 pm

jondee86 wrote:What ECU are you using.... OEM or aftermarket ?
Is the engine stock or highly modified ?

Stock engine + factory ECU + igniter + coil = all good.
Modified engine + Aftermarket ECU + coils = all good

Cheers... jondee86


So this seasons engine will be built as the follows:
MRP forged rods, new Toyota GZE pistons, stock head, stock intake manifold, T25 turbo.
Going to run 660cc injectors with a micro squirt ecu and harness for simplicity. (and budget haha)
only going to be wiring in the injectors and what ever I need for spark really so that's why im curious whats the best solution for when im at the dyno.

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Re: opinions on my efi journy

Postby jondee86 » Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:10 pm

OK... with that engine spec you definitely need full control over ignition timing.
So looking at the Microsquirt spec sheet I see that it mentions...
4* logic level ignition outputs (4cyl COP, 8cyl wasted)

The key words are "logic level" which means that it can be used to drive
up to four "smart" coils with built-in igniters, or control a separate igniter
to fire "dumb" coils.

I used a 2-channel igniter from a Subaru Legacy and two GZE coils to
run wasted spark. Then replaced that setup with 1NZ/2NZ COP's and
ran full sequential ignition. I only ran a max of 15psi and both setups
worked fine. If you plan on running 30psi start looking at LS coils :)

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: opinions on my efi journy

Postby jakes_hachiroku » Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:32 pm

jondee86 wrote:OK... with that engine spec you definitely need full control over ignition timing.
So looking at the Microsquirt spec sheet I see that it mentions...
4* logic level ignition outputs (4cyl COP, 8cyl wasted)

The key words are "logic level" which means that it can be used to drive
up to four "smart" coils with built-in igniters, or control a separate igniter
to fire "dumb" coils.

I used a 2-channel igniter from a Subaru Legacy and two GZE coils to
run wasted spark. Then replaced that setup with 1NZ/2NZ COP's and
ran full sequential ignition. I only ran a max of 15psi and both setups
worked fine. If you plan on running 30psi start looking at LS coils :)

Cheers... jondee86



Ok so... better off wiring in ignition coils and ditching the dizzy all together so the microsquirt can take over?

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Re: opinions on my efi journy

Postby jondee86 » Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:32 pm

Sorry... been a while since I used distributor ignition and I forgot about that option.
Sure, if you already have the MSD and distributor setup you could use that.

Image
http://megasquirt.free.fr/sources/MS/ma ... /msd6a.htm

It's all laid out in the manual. Take the VR rpm signal from the distributor, change
it to a square wave and send it to the ECU. The ECU does a bit of processing and
switches the MSD to ground to generate a spark. You will also need to wire the
camshaft position sensor in the distributor to the ECU. Sounds pretty straight
forward if you say it quickly :)

I've not worked with MS stuff and so I'm a bit short on the actual details. But there
are some experienced MS users on the forum and I'm sure that they will be able to
help you out with the finer details. You need as much spark energy as you can get
with boosted engines, so the MSD setup would actually be a good choice.

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: opinions on my efi journy

Postby jakes_hachiroku » Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:24 am

jondee86 wrote:Sorry... been a while since I used distributor ignition and I forgot about that option.
Sure, if you already have the MSD and distributor setup you could use that.

http://megasquirt.free.fr/sources/MS/manual/ms2/msd6av22.gif
http://megasquirt.free.fr/sources/MS/ma ... /msd6a.htm

It's all laid out in the manual. Take the VR rpm signal from the distributor, change
it to a square wave and send it to the ECU. The ECU does a bit of processing and
switches the MSD to ground to generate a spark. You will also need to wire the
camshaft position sensor in the distributor to the ECU. Sounds pretty straight
forward if you say it quickly :)

I've not worked with MS stuff and so I'm a bit short on the actual details. But there
are some experienced MS users on the forum and I'm sure that they will be able to
help you out with the finer details. You need as much spark energy as you can get
with boosted engines, so the MSD setup would actually be a good choice.

Cheers... jondee86


ok so keeping the msd would actually simplify things and save some cash which helps a lot haha. So I know my msd has two wires that go to one of the dizzy plugs and th other dizzy plug stays unused (as a carb set up) so im assuming my unused dizzy plug is the cam sensor portion? or am I dumb and does the msd use that signal? also I will brows that link and probably answer my own dumb questions haha thanks again man

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Re: opinions on my efi journy

Postby jondee86 » Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:16 pm

There are some very good articles on the interweb on how to wire and setup
your Microsqirt. This is one of them... http://www.microsquirt.info/uswiring.htm
You will need to study these guides until you have at least a basic understanding
of how an EFI engine management system works. It may seem intimidating to begin
with, but if you can pick out the parts that apply to your setup and make a few
notes, after a while it will start to make some sense :)

Your distributor should have at least two trigger wheels each with a pickup. Each
pickup will have two wires but the ground wires may be combined so that there are
only three wires coming out of the dissy. Some of these wires will have been
connected to the MSD but now they will be connected directly to the ECU. The VR
input wires to the MSD will now be unused and taped off.

You will also need a few extra sensors for the EFI system...
- a 2 bar MAP sensor (up to 15psi)
- a throttle position sensor (TPS)
- a manifold air temp (MAT) sensor
- a Wide Band O2 (WBO2) AFR gauge that outputs a signal to the ECU

More detail here... http://www.useasydocs.com/details/us3tune.htm
That manual is a kind of tough read as it contains a lot of information. But when
you get stuck you will find the answers buried in there :)

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: opinions on my efi journy

Postby jakes_hachiroku » Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:28 am

jondee86 wrote:There are some very good articles on the interweb on how to wire and setup
your Microsqirt. This is one of them... http://www.microsquirt.info/uswiring.htm
You will need to study these guides until you have at least a basic understanding
of how an EFI engine management system works. It may seem intimidating to begin
with, but if you can pick out the parts that apply to your setup and make a few
notes, after a while it will start to make some sense :)

Your distributor should have at least two trigger wheels each with a pickup. Each
pickup will have two wires but the ground wires may be combined so that there are
only three wires coming out of the dissy. Some of these wires will have been
connected to the MSD but now they will be connected directly to the ECU. The VR
input wires to the MSD will now be unused and taped off.

You will also need a few extra sensors for the EFI system...
- a 2 bar MAP sensor (up to 15psi)
- a throttle position sensor (TPS)
- a manifold air temp (MAT) sensor
- a Wide Band O2 (WBO2) AFR gauge that outputs a signal to the ECU

More detail here... http://www.useasydocs.com/details/us3tune.htm
That manual is a kind of tough read as it contains a lot of information. But when
you get stuck you will find the answers buried in there :)

Cheers... jondee86



Ok so it really doesn't seem that bad. Just getting the wires to the right places and taking my time

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Re: opinions on my efi journy

Postby jondee86 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:49 pm

Yes... the best thing that you can do is get a piece of paper and create a basic
wiring diagram. Identify every input and output that will be connected to the ECU
and where your power supply will be coming from. Something like this...

Image

You will want to add the dissy and ignition to your diagram just so that you don't
forget about them. And your diagram doesn't have to be flash... hand drawn will
get the job done and easy to make changes. The diagram here has quite a few
items that you won't need or use, so you can leave them out.

Don't forget that you will need an EFI fuel pump, filter and fuel pressure regulator
along with the fuel rail and fixing bolts.

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: opinions on my efi journy

Postby jakes_hachiroku » Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:24 am

jondee86 wrote:Yes... the best thing that you can do is get a piece of paper and create a basic
wiring diagram. Identify every input and output that will be connected to the ECU
and where your power supply will be coming from. Something like this...

http://www.useasydocs.com/details/ew3_hires.gif

You will want to add the dissy and ignition to your diagram just so that you don't
forget about them. And your diagram doesn't have to be flash... hand drawn will
get the job done and easy to make changes. The diagram here has quite a few
items that you won't need or use, so you can leave them out.

Don't forget that you will need an EFI fuel pump, filter and fuel pressure regulator
along with the fuel rail and fixing bolts.

Cheers... jondee86



Yes im still sorting out what pump im going to run. also I CAN NOT find a small port fuel rail to save my life! so might have to get aftermarket which is pricy

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Re: opinions on my efi journy

Postby Davegt27 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:01 pm

I ran a MSD 6 on my 85 MR2 back 2000 time frame

You also need a MSD tach adapt
Davegt27 Code One Racing

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Re: opinions on my efi journy

Postby jondee86 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:32 pm

jakes_hachiroku wrote: also I CAN NOT find a small port fuel rail to save my life!

I have a spare one here in New Zealand. They usually sell here for around NZ$100 and
postage to the US will be around NZ$35. So if you get stuck NZ$135 = US$88 and it's yours
in a couple of weeks for US$92 (including Paypal fees).

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: opinions on my efi journy

Postby jondee86 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:40 pm

Davegt27 wrote:You also need a MSD tach adaptor

Going by the diagram above it looks like the Microsquirt had a dedicated tacho output
which I believe is a 12V square wave. With a bit of cunning and a couple of dollars worth
of electrical components that should be able to generate a voltage spike signal for the
factory tacho. Bound to be cheaper than anything from MSD !!

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: opinions on my efi journy

Postby jakes_hachiroku » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:44 am

jondee86 wrote:
jakes_hachiroku wrote: also I CAN NOT find a small port fuel rail to save my life!

I have a spare one here in New Zealand. They usually sell here for around NZ$100 and
postage to the US will be around NZ$35. So if you get stuck NZ$135 = US$88 and it's yours
in a couple of weeks for US$92 (including Paypal fees).

Cheers... jondee86


Wow! super hard to find here in the states idk why lol But I will paypal you that money today if you are willing to get rid of it!!!! just let me know and I will give you my paypal info ;)

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Re: opinions on my efi journy

Postby jondee86 » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:37 pm

jakes_hachiroku wrote:Wow! super hard to find here in the states idk why lol But I will paypal you that
money today if you are willing to get rid of it!!!! just let me know and I will give
you my paypal info ;)

PM'd you but bit of a screw up... I forgot I needed the fuel rail for a spare smallport
engine that I will be selling soon. So hold up on the Paypal until I can track another
one down. They come up fairly regularly on a local auction site and I should be able
to get one for you... might take a few more weeks.

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: opinions on my efi journy

Postby jakes_hachiroku » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:48 pm

jondee86 wrote:
jakes_hachiroku wrote:Wow! super hard to find here in the states idk why lol But I will paypal you that
money today if you are willing to get rid of it!!!! just let me know and I will give
you my paypal info ;)

PM'd you but bit of a screw up... I forgot I needed the fuel rail for a spare smallport
engine that I will be selling soon. So hold up on the Paypal until I can track another
one down. They come up fairly regularly on a local auction site and I should be able
to get one for you... might take a few more weeks.

Cheers... jondee86


aww crap haha that's fine man! when ever you can snag one let me know. for some reason I haven't been able to find one for a long time!

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Re: opinions on my efi journy

Postby jondee86 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:25 pm

Still looking for one of these ?

Image

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: opinions on my efi journy

Postby jakes_hachiroku » Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:44 pm

jondee86 wrote:Still looking for one of these ?

Image

Cheers... jondee86



Hey man! thank you but I did end up finding an after market one for my smallport that wasn't too pricey lol Thank you very much though. if you ever find a kouki trueno grill that isn't 1 million dollars let me know though XD

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Re: opinions on my efi journy

Postby jondee86 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:16 am

No worries... I picked it up with a couple of other small items I needed, so I will
sell it easily enough next time I have a cleanout.

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: opinions on my efi journy

Postby jakes_hachiroku » Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:06 am

jondee86 wrote:There are some very good articles on the interweb on how to wire and setup
your Microsqirt. This is one of them... http://www.microsquirt.info/uswiring.htm
You will need to study these guides until you have at least a basic understanding
of how an EFI engine management system works. It may seem intimidating to begin
with, but if you can pick out the parts that apply to your setup and make a few
notes, after a while it will start to make some sense :)

Your distributor should have at least two trigger wheels each with a pickup. Each
pickup will have two wires but the ground wires may be combined so that there are
only three wires coming out of the dissy. Some of these wires will have been
connected to the MSD but now they will be connected directly to the ECU. The VR
input wires to the MSD will now be unused and taped off.

You will also need a few extra sensors for the EFI system...
- a 2 bar MAP sensor (up to 15psi)
- a throttle position sensor (TPS)
- a manifold air temp (MAT) sensor
- a Wide Band O2 (WBO2) AFR gauge that outputs a signal to the ECU

More detail here... http://www.useasydocs.com/details/us3tune.htm
That manual is a kind of tough read as it contains a lot of information. But when
you get stuck you will find the answers buried in there :)

Cheers... jondee86



So im at the point of trying to start this pig now and im having some issue with it, and im thinking it could be a cam position issue. But on my microsquirt I don't see a pin for cam position! here is a link so you can look at the back of what I have that lists all the pins and maybe im missing something? or maybe I don't need it due to running an msd? thanks just double checking my work! haha here is the link

https://www.diyautotune.com/product/mic ... gJiA_D_BwE

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Re: opinions on my efi journy

Postby jondee86 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:19 pm

Here is the diagram from the Microsquirt manual and I have marked the connections that
you should be using is you have the basic 4AGE distributor...

Image

The distributor should have two VR sensors, one on the 24T wheel (crank sensor) and one
on the 4T wheel (cam sensor). The manual refers to these as crank and cam tach signals
as they are reading the speed of the trigger wheels, but they have ZERO connection with
any TACH output to the tachometer on your dash.

Image

Inside the distributor there will usually be a blue wire, a red wire and two white wires.
The white wires are spliced together and appear outside the distributor as a single wire.
Note that in this pic the blue wire is hidden under the white wire. You will need to separate
the two white wires and extend them to connect to the Mocrosquirt.

The MSD has now become a simple igniter box and will receive its trigger signal from the
Microsquirt (refer to Page 72 of the Microsquirt manual).

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: opinions on my efi journy

Postby jakes_hachiroku » Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:12 am

jondee86 wrote:Here is the diagram from the Microsquirt manual and I have marked the connections that
you should be using is you have the basic 4AGE distributor...

pic

The distributor should have two VR sensors, one on the 24T wheel (crank sensor) and one
on the 4T wheel (cam sensor). The manual refers to these as crank and cam tach signals
as they are reading the speed of the trigger wheels, but they have ZERO connection with
any TACH output to the tachometer on your dash.

pic

Inside the distributor there will usually be a blue wire, a red wire and two white wires.
The white wires are spliced together and appear outside the distributor as a single wire.
Note that in this pic the blue wire is hidden under the white wire. You will need to separate
the two white wires and extend them to connect to the Mocrosquirt.

The MSD has now become a simple igniter box and will receive its trigger signal from the
Microsquirt (refer to Page 72 of the Microsquirt manual).

Cheers... jondee86



So I thought that this was the job of the little GM 4 pin sensor that I wired in ( see above msd diagram you posted) to send signal from dizzy to the microsquirt and then to the msd box. So is that not the case or are both signals needed?

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Re: opinions on my efi journy

Postby jondee86 » Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:54 pm

What you have wired up is a generic ignition module. It takes the AC signal from
the VR sensor and conditions it to produce a 12V DC square wave output. The output
can be used as a cam signal to fire a single coil in the same way that points ignition
takes a cam signal off the distributor shaft. Works for carbed engines with fixed
ignition advance.

For an EFI engine the ECU needs more information and it gets this from the crank
position sensor in the distributor. The Microsquirt has its own signal conditioning
built-in allowing the VR sensors to be connected direct to the ECU without the need
for the generic ignition module (igniter). So yes, the Microsquirt needs both signals.

The Microsquirt processes the VR inputs, adds ignition advance and sends a trigger
signal to the MSB box which then fires the coil. This is different to a carbed engine
where the MSD box can take a conditioned VR signal from the igniter and add some
ignition advance before firing the coil.

I would recommend that you follow the wiring instructions in the Microsquirt manual
and delete the generic ignition module plus any unnecessary wiring. The wiring from
the VR sensors to the ECU is sensitive to electrical noise. So if you follow the manual
regarding using shielded wires and eliminate extra joins/splices you will possibly
save yourself problems down the line.

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: opinions on my efi journy

Postby jakes_hachiroku » Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:08 am

jondee86 wrote:What you have wired up is a generic ignition module. It takes the AC signal from
the VR sensor and conditions it to produce a 12V DC square wave output. The output
can be used as a cam signal to fire a single coil in the same way that points ignition
takes a cam signal off the distributor shaft. Works for carbed engines with fixed
ignition advance.

For an EFI engine the ECU needs more information and it gets this from the crank
position sensor in the distributor. The Microsquirt has its own signal conditioning
built-in allowing the VR sensors to be connected direct to the ECU without the need
for the generic ignition module (igniter). So yes, the Microsquirt needs both signals.

The Microsquirt processes the VR inputs, adds ignition advance and sends a trigger
signal to the MSB box which then fires the coil. This is different to a carbed engine
where the MSD box can take a conditioned VR signal from the igniter and add some
ignition advance before firing the coil.

I would recommend that you follow the wiring instructions in the Microsquirt manual
and delete the generic ignition module plus any unnecessary wiring. The wiring from
the VR sensors to the ECU is sensitive to electrical noise. So if you follow the manual
regarding using shielded wires and eliminate extra joins/splices you will possibly
save yourself problems down the line.

Cheers... jondee86


Ok so the above post confused me quite a bit but knowing this info now its an easy fix because everything else is wired up correctly, so all I have to do now is ditch that little sensor and wire up the dizzy with those VR wires and it should be all ready to go! Thank you again for all you do!

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Re: opinions on my efi journy

Postby 24milespergallon » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:07 pm

should run the coil on top and the trigger wheel

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