TVIS inlet

jinx
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby jinx » Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:15 am

Manufacturers don't usually add the extra cost and complication of trick intake
components unless there is a problem to be addressed. And in due course the smallport
showed that there were better ways of fixing a lack of torque. Just my guess

ALOT of motors incoorporate this wizardry. It simply works.
Immediately felt the difference when the vacuum hose on my TVIS had a hole
Toyota MZ V6, mazda BP, ca18, 4g63(non-us had tvis)..... very common for the day. Even moderns like the mazda3 2.3
While smallport versions increase port velocity more economically.... flaps Very effective, especially boosted
Dyno confirmed by many.
1st megasquirted turbo tvis 1.6 clubmember said low-midrange pull was so strong it felt "unatural, almost V8 like"
A 200 hp 1.6 must be cammed pretty aggressive. I'd think tvis/low-mid rpm not important for the application

When you start getting deep, into slicing up intakes/massive mods.... gotta ask if it's "turd polishing". Worth it?

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jondee86
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby jondee86 » Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:21 am

Here is a screenshot grabbed from this video... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtX4ocZRITo

Image

This is from a mildly modified bigport running smallport 10.3:1 pistons. As can be seen
from the graph the difference in bottom end between TVIS ON and TVIS OFF is minimal.
I have seen many similar graphs... some show a little bit more, but never a lot more.

The factory TVIS opening point is programmed to occur at the rpm where the power
with TVIS closed is the same as power with the TVIS open. So the there is no "V-Tec
opened... yo" feeling, but there may be a small change in intake noise. I have to say
I never noticed it on either of my cars. Mileage and results may vary :)

The comment re TVIS with boost is much more interesting. Intake velocity is important
to achieving good combustion and providing the turbo is making boost early (say from
2500rpm) this will likely make a big improvement in VE even with one runner closed.
After all this was the whole idea of putting the TVIS in there when running N.A.... to
improve the port velocity. Obviously works with boost just as well.

On my supercharged 4AGE the thing had torque as soon as you cracked the throttle...
no waiting !!! Felt like a sturdy 2500cc N.A. engine. My current car is a 3-litre straight
six with two small turbos and hits early and hard. So much nicer to drive than a small
N.A. engine that has to rev its nuts off to make any power. Boost is king :D

Cheers... jondee86
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persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
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oldeskewltoy
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:18 am

That was on MR2OC, but I was drawing attention to the point he kind of hit a barrier at 155 ish whp with the stock manifold...., but now that I think of it, it was also attempting to keep the stock engine management............

(As the forum isn't playing nice... link instead of photo...... (angry) )

This is Skippy's build (OST-032 in an FX16), largeport, w/smallport pistons, ported head, stock cams, manifolds, and management - versus the "stock" offerings.

https://gallery.ostportworks.com/albums ... vs_OST.jpg

Torque isn't all that hard to make... As far as a smooth switch over..... maybe 4200...???


As far as boosted, the 4AGZE I built for a client had over 160#/ft @ 2000 rpm, and by 4100 it made 210#/ft
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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jondee86
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby jondee86 » Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:05 pm

There was a time when engines didn't need trick intake manifolds to make torque...

Image

And it was usable torque... there at low rpm so you didn't have to abuse the clutch and
rev the snot out of the engine just to get your car moving. Go everywhere in top gear
kind of torque :D But torque dropped off dramatically at higher engine speeds so revving
the engine out in the gears was pretty much a waste of time... just get it into top gear
and enjoy the drive.

However, big hp numbers are what draw the punters into the showroom, so over the years
the torque curve got pushed to higher rpm's, engines got peakier and lost that nice grunty
bottom end. This opened the door for the diesel engine to become the go to if you were
looking for a torque monster under the hood.

I guess that getting older changes what you want out of a car. I had a lot of fun with high
revving N.A. engines only eventually I wanted something a bit more civilized... a car that
had enough torque to overtake safely without having to change down two gears. One time
I had a 400cc 4-cylinder motorcycle that revved to 14000rpm. That was fun (for a while)
but my clutch hand would get a cramp from constantly changing gears :(

So that's my story. Each to their own, just go for whatever makes you happy. A car is just
a car, and changing your car when you get tired of it is a lot cheaper than divorce !!!!

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby jinx » Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:15 pm

Most experience the obvious tvis difference https://www.mr2oc.com/threads/i-think-m ... pen.88013/
reckon automaker engineers test any vehicles ?
Go the effort & expense of flaps, for: little to no torque difference & to add induction noise ?
they would be all dummys at toyota, nissan, mazda, mitsu :) Hardly

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jondee86
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby jondee86 » Fri Oct 01, 2021 6:37 pm

I never tried disabling the TVIS on my stock engine... the car ran OK and it pulled good
enough for a 1600. In fact I owned it for quite a few years before I even knew what TVIS
on the intake manifold meant :D

Intake tuning has been around since people started racing cars. There is no argument that
you can improve VE in certain parts of the rev range by adjusting the physical dimensions
of the intake. As pointed out many manufacturers have included variable intakes on their
engines, not to mention variable valve timing, variable valve lift and exhaust valves.

Many of these systems were developed to improve engine efficiency and emissions as well
as performance. However, in the case of the 16V 4AGE better performance came with a
bump in compression and an improved intake design. I like old school engines that do what
they do without all kinds of technological trickery. If I could find a V8 60 worth rebuilding
that would be in a small RWD vehicle... worth it just for the exhaust sound !!!

Image

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby sirdeuce » Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:13 pm

Jondee, Toyota 4 or 5V-EU HEMI! If you haven't heard of it, 5V is a 4.0 hemi V8, the 4V is 3.4 liters.
One shot, one kill.

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jondee86
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby jondee86 » Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:15 pm

sirdeuce wrote:Jondee, Toyota 4 or 5V-EU HEMI! If you haven't heard of it, 5V is a 4.0 hemi V8, the 4V is 3.4 liters.

Yusss... oldeskewltoy is building one. I looked into it a long time ago but even then they
were scarce. I figure if I ever build an old V8 it will be a sidevalve. It's nostalgia. The first
car I ever owned was a '34 5-window coupe with an engine swap from a bren gun carrier.
Had the sweetest twin pipe setup I ever heard and I've never forgotten that sound.

If I got keen and couldn't find a sidevalve, then it would have to be a 289 or a 283. Both
part of hot rodding history, and probably could ship something in from the US with the
hard work already done. That would save all the hassle of finding parts and an old school
machinist who could still remember how to build a classic V8. Dreams are free :D

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby jinx » Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:26 am

I too had no idea what tvis meant..... until it stopped working
Again, I'd imagine useless in any 200hp 4age

old mazda 2.2L ran some funky multiplate throttle body/intake design + 2intake/1exhaust valve per cylinder
Stock motor, stock computer + $150 holset dyno a whopping 540 ft-lbs tq. Incredible! Dusted some heavyweight street beasts
https://www.mx6.com/threads/highest-hp- ... 2t.254026/

oldeskewltoy
porting photos are nice, but say nothing until it's all bolted together andthe tire speaks, really
Results sound solid. It'd be nice if you had a blog or reference to your clients final builds

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jondee86
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby jondee86 » Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:49 pm

jinx wrote:old mazda 2.2L ran some funky multiplate throttle body/intake design + 2intake/1exhaust valve per cylinder
Stock motor, stock computer + $150 holset dyno a whopping 540 ft-lbs tq. Incredible! Dusted some heavyweight street beasts
https://www.mx6.com/threads/highest-hp- ... 2t.254026/

Don't know much about the Probe but google tells me that the GT version came stock
with a small turbo. So obviously Mazda must have beefed up the mechanicals as putting
that much torque on the chassis should have shredded the drivetrain. Sure looks like the
guy who built it was having fun :D Must have been running 30psi !!!

Cheers... jondee86
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persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby sirdeuce » Sun Oct 03, 2021 11:16 am

Note on 2TG.
bore 85mm
stroke 70mm
intake valve 43mm
exhaust valve 37
compression 10-1 ( best recollection )

I never got into modding the 2TG, But the 18RG was a different story. The 2TG was good for 200+ hp N/A, not that I ever tried to get it there. I have a friend that likes the 2TC (the little Hemi that could) and has achieved a WHP of 160 or so in his Mango.

Sorry, I just love these little engines.
One shot, one kill.

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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby jondee86 » Sun Oct 03, 2021 3:46 pm

Unfortunately 2T and 3T engines are quite rare in this country. Due to the way the
motor industry was controlled here, local assembly of Japanese vehicles in the 60's and
70's was pretty much restricted to base models with pushrod or single cam engines. High
performance and sports models with twincam engines were only available as fully builtup
cars imported from Japan, and supplies were strictly limited.

When they were a few available they were allocated to dealers who kept them for their
favorite customers such as fleet buyers, or those lucky enough to have a luxury vehicle
(private imports for those with the right connections) to offer as a trade. It was only
when the import restrictions on the importing of used vehicles were eased in the early
80's that JDM performance vehicles started to become more readily available.

This was bad news for the dealerships that had been price gouging on new imports, as
the price of a decent used series 1 RX7 was about half of what the dealers were charging
for a new one, and that was after you took a bath on your trade !!! However, by the
time there were used performance coupes in good supply, it was the late 80's and the
AE85 and AE86 were quite common, but anything with a 2T or 3T was considered a bit
old by the importers, when most people were going for the newer models.

A few 3T Celicas and Coronas made it over the wharf but then it was the start of the
1JZ and 2JZ era and they rapidly became the engine of choice. So these days pretty
much the only place I have ever seen a 2T or 3T is in a restored Celica or in a vintage
sports car or single seater. And there is this...

Image
https://themotorhood.com/themotorhood/2 ... that-could

Bit of NZ history for you there :D

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby jinx » Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:49 pm

Image
plain ol 2 & especially 3TC pushrod corollas littered the usa. Tons in junkyards, years back. Folks made good use of them
No need for the added bulk, extra cam + chains of the G.
Stock 3TC with cam, springs, carbs easily pull past 8500rpm. Street turbo versions frightening acceleration
With 5 speed gearbox I've seen full street rollas leave with 1-2 feet air under the front tires
I wonder what they'll do with a 3speed auto.... as down under, GM Trimatics seem to be the most efficient performers
I've held onto 2 toyota A40 3 speed autos, thinking/hoping the same mods may yield similar. Gotta chase the info

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jondee86
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby jondee86 » Mon Oct 04, 2021 1:47 pm

A few years back I saw a guy in Australia advertising a A40 3-speed that had been modified
for drag racing. Actually contacted him as I was thinking about getting an A42DL for my AE
at the time. Didn't take it any further but I remember that the A40 had been beefed up to
handle some serious power.

So there must be some people in Australia who can do the work. Maybe Toymods could help
you track the business down as they love their old Celicas over there :)

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby Rogue-AE95 » Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:34 am

sirdeuce wrote:I looked at the manifold from a Protege' 5 [...] Any way, this mani has 2 intake tracts, separated from each other, with a set of butterflys closing off the larger tract.


jondee86 wrote:Intake tuning has been around since people started racing cars. There is no argument that you can improve VE in certain parts of the rev range by adjusting the physical dimensions of the intake. As pointed out many manufacturers have included variable intakes on their engines, not to mention variable valve timing, variable valve lift and exhaust valves.

Many of these systems were developed to improve engine efficiency and emissions as well as performance. However, in the case of the 16V 4AGE better performance came with a bump in compression and an improved intake design. I like old school engines that do what they do without all kinds of technological trickery.


I have in one of my cars an Integra B18C1, with the stock "clam" intake manifold. It sounds like what is described above for the Protege. It has 4 long runners where air is directed at low RPMs, and at high rpms, the IAB (intake air bypass) plate opens up the butterflies inside and the air flows through the shorter runners.

[links because the forum is being difficult with images]
https://postimg.cc/sQ54HjNq
https://postimg.cc/CRrhzLXk
https://postimg.cc/94LsJBss (GS-R & Type R intakes)

Interestingly this engine has the second lowest CR of a VTEC B series at 10:1. VTEC "kicks in yo" first at around 4400 RPMs, followed by the IABs about 1300 RPMs later (stock management). It's a fun thing to drive, hearing the engine sound increase with VTEC, then the IABs open up and you get one more slight change in sound. Mmmm-aaaaa-AAAAAA :)

Honda must have thought this intake good enough to keep around through all the model years of the GS-R (94-01). Lots (most?) of the guys who rebuild or tune these engines will replace the stock manifold with an aftermarket one that is more of a typical design. AFAIK these are guys mostly building NA engines so they want better top end. And the Type R uses a typical intake design, so that must be better, right?

I'm one of a few who wants to keep that OEM manifold with its IABs, and work with it for my build. My end goal is to turbo, but not chasing more than 300ish HP. I'm also considering sending out the IAB plate to have the butterflies enlarged. There's a place in Florida that does this (http://www.maxbore.com).

If I was in a mindset 10 years ago that I'm in now, I wouldn't have gone to great pains to track down a smallport head / intake. I would have just pulled a FWD / MR2 intake & head from the junkyard and used that. I kind of like the idea of utilizing things like T-VIS and IABs in your build.

Also of interest is that the B18C1 head design features the combustion chamber quench pads that the 16v 4A-GE heads have. The B16 & Type R (same casting) heads do not.

[links because the forum is being difficult with images]
https://postimg.cc/GHkqg2vR
https://postimg.cc/fVYwNhjc
'88 Corolla All-Trac x2 (manual, auto)

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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby jondee86 » Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:41 pm

The Gen 6 Celica intake uses a second set of butterflies (out of the airflow) to change the
tuned length of the intake. With the butterflies closed the lower rpm operation is improved.
The changeover point is around 5000rpm.

Image

This design has longer intake runners than the 4AGE TVIS system which targets stronger
resonant frequencies for better intake "ramming" effect.

Cheers... jondee86
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persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby sirdeuce » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:21 pm

From my son

You want a better breathing engine? Try "Breath Right" strips. Maybe a puff of Albuterol.
One shot, one kill.

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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby jondee86 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:55 pm

Adding a bit of nitromethane to the fuel will get around any breathing problems :)

Cheers,,, jondee86
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby jinx » Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:30 pm

I guess it boils down to making "trick" mods on a 'TVIS' intake - to meet the rules, and not restrict at 200hp
A one-off task. Interesting to see the outcome.... and the build components also, of a 200hp 1.6L

I saw a guy in Australia advertising a A40 3-speed that had been modified
for drag racing. Actually contacted him as I was thinking about getting an A42DL for my AE....

I have an 4A A42DL, but considered it too rare for tinkering
Yeah, the Aussies figured out how lethal import + autos get, and would build an A40. Turbo auto street cars are a blast
Where this side of the pond, the puerto ricans built the fastest 4s & rotaries... never warmed to autos
I figure the A40 were somewhat copy of the popular Trimatic - which, without transbrake mild ca18 full street rolla go 9sec
...or go mental if you dare https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScQvAzKejJ8