TVIS inlet

totta crolla
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TVIS inlet

Postby totta crolla » Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:01 am

Does anyone know the power capacity (flow rate) of a non turbocharged TVIS RWD inlet manifold with the TVIS plates removed?
I have a proven 200hp engine that is on Weber carbs but the class l want to use the car in states that a standard inlet must be used.

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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby jinx » Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:20 pm

seeing as you're gonna have to revert back to the oem manifold anyway...... just try it out
Can't see a TVIS intake choking anything at 200hp. Oldskewl dyno'd 145hp at the tires, with butterflies in, and mild cams
I'd imagine you're removing flaps because RPMs always above 4000, for your application

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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby jinx » Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:22 pm

...or maybe it was smallport ? ....either way, 200 shouldn't be a challenge

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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby jondee86 » Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:18 am

Here are the TRD GroupA 4AGE specs from back in the 80's. They were making around 170hp at the
crank back then with a whole bunch of closely controlled parts and camshafts limited to 7.5mm lift.
They had to use the factory intake manifold and probably the TVIS plate, but I can't be sure of that.

Image

No doubt your cams will have more lift and you will be running a few more revs, so 200hp at the
crank should be within reach with the factory intake manifold.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby totta crolla » Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:55 pm

Thanks for the info.
Jinx, the head is indeed a smallport so to use a TVIS inlet would need a conversion plate. Not ideal.
I might just get away with a smallport inlet but that is also not ideal.
The ideal solution would be a TVIS plenum merged onto a smallport inlet. I wonder if that might be possible?

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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby jondee86 » Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:52 pm

What about a cut-n-shut smallport manifold ? Factory manifold modified to RWD...

Image

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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:09 pm

When I had the plenum swap built for my engine.....


Image

Image

Image

Image



I happen to like that all the fittings are now on the outside of the plenum - easier for connecting

Image
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby jinx » Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:11 pm

come to think of it..... I believe oldskewls' build was a smallport
info scattered all over the place. Could never seem to find it. Good stuff to archive
He detailed smallport intake to rwd, with a different approach iirc
no point mixing bigport/smallport stuff. Either proven to deliver
145hp 1.6, taking a full street rwd corolla to mid 15s 1/4 mile is solid performance imo
that is with mild Web cams(not a top shelf brand, from my research - ask the DSM crew)

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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby jondee86 » Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:11 pm

@OST When I made my manifold I went to the trouble of sloping the throttlebody
downwards to match the slope on the factory RWD manifold as it was going into an
AE86. I did that in case there was a clearance issue with the closed hood if the
throttlebody was installed level. Second reason was that I could use the factory
air intake, filter and snorkel for the initial installation :)

Did you find that your T/B got close to the hood or was there enough clearance ?

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby totta crolla » Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:18 am

I have a RWD converted smallport inlet and have the same bonnet clearance issue that Jondee mentions.
What OST has done with his inlet would be ideal for my application but I'd need to graft a TVIS top on.

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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby jondee86 » Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:33 am

totta crolla wrote:What OST has done with his inlet would be ideal for my application but I'd need to graft a TVIS top on.

That would seem to be the ideal solution providing (a) the scrutineers don't know/care how many
intake runners the TVIS manifold should have, and (b) that they will not be looking for a TVIS plate.
You just need to do a bit of measuring to see if that style of graft will work when you are trying
to match the runner section from one to the upper section of the other.

If that doesn't work you could try grinding the ribs off the top of your smallport manifold and
sticking the TVIS ID plate on top :?

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby sirdeuce » Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:38 am

I know this will attract flack, but... If you have to use the "stock" manifold but are allowed mods, like removing the T-vis plates, maybe consider Extrudehone. I've done it in the past for a smog controlled street car. Looks completely stock. you can even mock up the actuator to make it look functional. The throttle body can be bored as well. Bigger throttle plate didn't really do much more than improve throttle response, might help above 8krpm. I also have a reclocked ECU, fuel cut is closer to 8800rpm. for classes that required stock ECU. If you had to go that route. All that to maintain a stock appearance.
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:39 pm

no clearance issues.

I did fabricate the intake side of things - shortening a stock intake hose, and using the Ford Ranger airbox, with an added snorkel behind the headlamp.

A TVIS manifold will be hardpressed to flow enough for 200hp - the passages in the downward section of the runners is too small - Extrude Home may be useful here.
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby jinx » Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:25 pm

.....and this in a 'box' corolla, whose front/hood doesn't slope down like the AE wedge

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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:46 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:
A TVIS manifold will be hardpressed to flow enough for 200hp - the passages in the downward section of the runners is too small - Extrude Home may be useful here.


interesting series of photos.....

Image

Image

Image
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby jinx » Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:26 am

2 of those "restrictive" runners feed 1 cylinder. Their total cross sectional area 'appears' bigger than a single ITB
do ITBs choke normally aspirated @ 200hp ?

4 of those TVIS runners, total cross sectional area 'looks' bigger than the throttle body. 8 = definitely far bigger area
So what really is the bottleneck ? Best way to know for sure is always.... bolt the parts together and find out, imo

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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby jondee86 » Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:55 am

This ^^^^. I know it is fashionable to dismiss the information posted by Billzilla as being out of date, but
I happen to think that he did know what he was talking about when it came to generalising the upgrade
path for the 4AGE. And as I recall (correct me if I am wrong) he stated that while the smallport intake
was superior for moderate power increases, the bigport was superior when power was getting up around
the 180-200hp range.

This makes sense to me as the bigport suffered from low intake velocity at low rpm making it necessary
to devise the TVIS system. The smallport overcame the low rpm intake velocity problem by... wait for it...
making the intake runners/ports smaller :) Thus it it is quite logical that the bigport would flow more at
high rpm and make more power.

I don't have the measurements to calculate if 2 x bigport runners have more area than 1 x smallport runner,
but the pics sure look like that could be the case. Of course there are other factors involved that affect
the flow. Throttlebody area does not directly relate to 4 x or 8 x runner area as only one runner is actually
drawing in air at any particular moment.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby totta crolla » Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:00 am

Some great stuff here, thanks so much.
Now l'm in a quandry, bigport certainly looks to be capable BUT l'd need to use a smallport/bigport adaptor plate. Has anyone any experience of these?

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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby jondee86 » Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:50 pm

If you are feeling adventurous, read this... https://sv3power.com/_page_id=324/
You are doing the opposite to this guy but you could look at doing something along the
same lines. If you are not fussed about retaining the TVIS you could gut the plate and
make your own adapter plate. Easy enough to add a bit of material where needed
either by welding or using JB Weld.

However, that is a lot of time and effort, so to get up and running you could just get
one of these... https://flos.ie/shop/small-port-to-big- ... ptor-4age/

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby sirdeuce » Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:08 pm

jondee86 wrote:This ^^^^. I know it is fashionable to dismiss the information posted by Billzilla as being out of date, but
I happen to think that he did know what he was talking about when it came to generalising the upgrade
path for the 4AGE. And as I recall (correct me if I am wrong) he stated that while the smallport intake
was superior for moderate power increases, the bigport was superior when power was getting up around
the 180-200hp range.

This makes sense to me as the bigport suffered from low intake velocity at low rpm making it necessary
to devise the TVIS system. The smallport overcame the low rpm intake velocity problem by... wait for it...
making the intake runners/ports smaller :) Thus it it is quite logical that the bigport would flow more at
high rpm and make more power.

I don't have the measurements to calculate if 2 x bigport runners have more area than 1 x smallport runner,
but the pics sure look like that could be the case. Of course there are other factors involved that affect
the flow. Throttlebody area does not directly relate to 4 x or 8 x runner area as only one runner is actually
drawing in air at any particular moment.

Cheers... jondee86


Actually, Billzilla said the small port HEAD eas better at moderate increases and the big port HEAD was better at the higher output builds. I bealieve he said beyond 160hp builds it was best to go with multiple TBs, and he monkeyed a carb setup to work as ITBs.
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby sirdeuce » Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:22 pm

As for the small port and big port runners, I read, somewhere, the port cross sections were about the same but the big port has more surface area creating more drag which reduces flow.
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby sirdeuce » Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:28 pm

I think you could get 200hp with the big port manifold with just a LOT of work. Basically turn those parallel, round ports into one oval port. Lots of cutting and welding. Could be a project for a stealth mod in Cali. would not be worth it though.
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:49 pm

I see no huge challenge in removing the inner walls for each cylinder - remove plemum, remove a 1" section from the back side(@ outer radii) of the runners - remove center divider/port smooth, weld up back side and weld plenum. If done carefully you might be able to hide the welds and it'll appear stock


sirdeuce wrote:I think you could get 200hp with the big port manifold with just a LOT of work. Basically turn those parallel, round ports into one oval port. Lots of cutting and welding. Could be a project for a stealth mod in Cali. would not be worth it though.


remember "MR2trailbreakers" build... 150 something whp....
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby sirdeuce » Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:03 pm

Was that build here or MR2OC?

I would fill in the valley on the bottom/back of the runners and flatten the floor between the runners and keep the top appearing stock, for here in Cali. For elsewhere, fill the top in as well and do the whole 'oval' in the runner. Too much work. I would be interesting to see how it would go.
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby jondee86 » Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:46 pm

Lots of ideas and lots of work with an unknown result :) Looking at this pic of an
bigport-smallport adapter plate, I think it is an easy, totally reversible solution that
is well work a try before looking at the more extreme options.

Image

Having the airflow going from the bigport side to the smallport side, while not ideal
is better than airflow in the opposite direction. Intake velocity will be accelerated
which is good for retaining the lower rpm torque advantage of the smallport.

The changes of direction are a bit sharper than ideal, and the airflow will be pushed
away from a straight line entry into the port. However, since we no longer have
TVIS to interfere it does not really make too much difference... it may actually
help by creating a bit more swirl in the combustion chamber.

So for the cost of an adapter plate and a couple of intake gaskets I would certainly
give the adapter plate a go and see how it works out.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby sirdeuce » Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:15 pm

I think OST did a head with one of those adapters. I believe he had to do a bit of work to get it to fit right.
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby sirdeuce » Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:26 pm

A little off center here. I looked at the manifold from a Protege' 5 and thought, this was what Toyota described in the neginnning desing phase. I did a little comparison in the port alignment to see if it were a worth while project, but the ports were too far off on ports 1 and 4. Any way, this mani has 2 intake tracts, separated from each other, with a set of butterflys closing off the larger tract. If Toyota were to have done this it would have been better that the T-vis they ended up with.
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby jondee86 » Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:42 pm

While I don't have any specific information relating to the reasons for using the TVIS
system on the 4A-GE, these figures pulled from Wikipedia are interesting...

16V 4A-GEU 81 x 77 bore x stroke 112hp @ 6600rpm, 97lb.ft @ 4800rpm
8V 2T-GEU 85 x 70 bore x stroke 115hp @ 6000rpm, 108lb.ft @ 4800rpm

Image

The 2T-GEU was a tough act to follow, and despite having a more modern 4-valve
narrow angle head design, my guess is that the 4A-GEU came up short in the power
and torque department when first tested. The TVIS system was most likely a bandaid
fix to give the engine a little bit more down low to help with off-idle and around
town driving.

Manufacturers don't usually add the extra cost and complication of trick intake
components unless there is a problem to be addressed. And in due course the smallport
showed that there were better ways of fixing a lack of torque. Just my guess :)

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby sirdeuce » Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:54 pm

2 valve heads have been known for better torque numbers than 4 valve. 4 valve heads are better at the hp numbers. The 2TG was a beast for it's days. What is not seen in the specs above is the flatter torque curve. Off the line acceleration was better from the 2TG than the 4AGE. I do miss those engines, the 2TG and 18RG, they were awesome! Now, I just stick to the 4AGE and 22R. The 4AGE has the fun factor and the 22R just keeps going and going.
Last edited by sirdeuce on Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TVIS inlet

Postby sirdeuce » Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:58 pm

Don't forget the other great TG engines either, 3TG-TEU and the 4TG-TEU!
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