Budget build cheats.

sirdeuce
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Budget build cheats.

Postby sirdeuce » Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:29 pm

What crazy things have you done to your 4AGE to get that edge over your competition in restricted mod or stock class racing?

First thing I always go for is the early, lighter 40mm rod bearing rotating assembly and lighten whatever flywheel I use. From there it just gets silly.
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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby Davegt27 » Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:18 pm

I only autocrossed my 85 MR2 for a short time before I started getting distracted by other stuff

I tried making the move into SCCA F-production $$
I made mention that you can get by pass air through IACV, they heard that and made a rule that the MR2's IACV had to be replaced with a block off plate

so only the MR2 has that restriction, mean while the Mazda Miata and only the Miata get to run special lifters (non stock lifters) that allow them to run higher RPM

since then the Miata has dominated F-production (a few times some Hondas have won) but mostly is a Miata dominated class

I said screw it

I think they moved the slow ass MR2 to H production

edit I built a small journal 4AG motor that cost me $4K (it sits in my garage never run)
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sirdeuce
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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby sirdeuce » Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:36 pm

Hope it's a pretty piece of artwork for $4k.
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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby jondee86 » Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:30 pm

Don't know what your rules allow or don't allow ? But a friend of mine who used to tune
racing motorcycles told me that one of their tricks was to set the valve lash with the engine
hot and as close to zero lash as they could get without risking holding a valve off its seat.

A race car engineer who modified a 4AGE head for me lightened the valves by back cutting
and thinning the exposed part of the stems down a little. He also ground the exposed end
of the valve guides down to be flush with the top of the intake port.

If autocrossing with an ITB engine there are gains to be had with using "chokes" to increase
the intake velocity. Sacrifice a little maximum power but gain torque for better acceleration
out of corners. Overall this makes for better times.

Almost every car ever made has had some kind of IACV to provide enough "bypass" air to
enable the engine to cold start and hold a decent idle until warmed up. In the case of the
4AGE there is an extra bypass with adjusting screw built-in to the throttle body to help the
engine idle when hot with the throttle plate and the thermostatic idle air valve closed.

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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby totta crolla » Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:01 am

Cam timing adjustments to suit the type of competition and with a twin cam engine this can be quite effective.
Raise fuel rail pressure using internal pipe restriction (to help engine cooling if you are closing the exhaust valve early as above) The best low down power l ever got was by doing a compression test to set valve timing. This was an experiment and worked by getting as high a cranking compression as possible.
Clearance pistons and bearings on the wide side of reasonable and accept it will need a rebuild more often.
As mentioned above, understand that everything that needs to accelerate in an engine costs power.. every time you accelerate it.
Test different spark plugs to get the best performance.
All of the above can be done without raising suspicion, well, at least until you start winning things!

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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby Davegt27 » Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:04 am

My SCCA ITA CRX would run circles around the MR2

rules makers in SCCA anyways when they see the 4AG engine seem to think its a formula Atlantic motor

"at least until you start winning things!"

so true
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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby sirdeuce » Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:15 am

Cutting valve guides? Done it. Better to profile the guide to smooth flow around the valve stem.
Smaller chokes do help with low end umph for sure, but have you thought about raising the port floor or extending dividers into the ports in a bigport 4age?

For adjusting cam timing while keeping stock sprockets try offset pins. Multi hole sprockets and slotted pin holes are too obvious.

For some minor gains radiusing the valve face angle transitions helps. If you don't mind narrow margins on your valves cutting the seat overly wide can give a little gain.

Spending the time to find the best head helps a tad as well.

I've known a couple of guys blow abrasive material through the intake manifold ports where the rules allow "cleaning" but not porting.
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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby Davegt27 » Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:35 pm

back to budget

One thing that I have done
back when I was driving my NA 85 on the street I adjusted the Air Flow meter

well when it came time to get my emissions test I could not remember which way I had adjusted my AFM
so I tried adjusting it but I ended up failing my emissions twice
so I went and bought a narrow band air fuel ratio meter from autozone

to make a long story short I tried making all kinds of adjustments
tightening the AFM spring seemed to help port velocity and throttle response went up but the AFR was off at higher RPM
also I was not getting the range of adj I needed

to pass emissions I had to move the opposite direction from the throttle response
and lean out the engine
so I used the AC idle up solenoid to bypass air and lean out the engine
and I passed emissions, I do think for performance the other direction would have been better
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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby sirdeuce » Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:16 pm

Instead of messing with the AFM, a common mod that actually causes more problems than it's worth, an adjustable fuel pressure regulator is better. At the minimum, the stock regulator is supposed to be adjustable through the vacuum port or fuel inlet. I haven't looked into it. There's a few things you can do to trick the stock ECU. A small capacitor across the O2 wire to ground, potentiometer in line with the coolant and inlet air temp sensors.
There is a company out there that can put in a chip socket, and they have the software to tune the stock chip. They also have the ability to up the rev limit. Nice thing is the ability to keep the electronics looking completely stock.
Then there is one other thing you can do, some people advise against it. Reclock the ECU. Simple crystal change. Makes the ECU believe the engine is spinning slower than it is. Stretches the RPM range. I have one that cuts fuel @8800rpm. I hadn't had any issues when I ran it. Passed Cali smog too.

Always best to run a stand alone if you can though.
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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby Davegt27 » Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:47 pm

The AFM also has a temp sensor inside of it
on another car (my Opel GT) I tried using a an adj pot on the air temp sensor and then took it to the drag strip
it did nothing

I am a big advocate for adj FP regulator and I have them on both my SC MR2s but its easy to add fuel and adj FPR effect fuel over the whole range of engine operation

I never heard of the O2 sensor hack, the O2 sensor is mostly used for closed loop operation

"There is a company out there that can put in a chip socket, and they have the software to tune the stock chip. They also have the ability to up the rev limit. Nice thing is the ability to keep the electronics looking completely stock."

that would be cool

I heard of the crystal thing but never tried it

"Always best to run a stand alone if you can though."

yep stand alone can be best if you have the $$

got this in a few weeks ago for a long defunct project

Image

Image
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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby sirdeuce » Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:42 am

Another thing that works, if you can get away with it, Piggy back devices.

The NA AFM ECU won't work with them though. Requires a swap to the MAP electronics. Can be done for less than the cost of a decent stand alone. I've done it with one of my MR2s. Swapped the electronics and added a Greddy e-manage. For smog season I had an AFM I mocked up for visual. Got me by in the test. Looked stock, passed the sniffer and allowed more mods than could be accomplished with stock electronics. Now I just use a Megsquirt PnP.
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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby sirdeuce » Fri Dec 09, 2022 10:04 am

The O2 sensor mod helps with smooting the signal from the O2 sensor. Mostly helps passing CA smog test. A cap and resistor in parallel, can be stashed in the ECU box.
Second O2 sensor mod includes a battery and a voltage regulator circuit. Simple but more involved that most want. Allows control to overall signal strength while maintaining O2 sensor function.

The resistor in line with the ECT or IAT sensor is just to trick the ECU to see a colder temp than actual. I've done them when I started plaing around. Only thing I found they helped with is knock. That was 30 years ago.

Mods do help a tad bit, nothing major. Probably be better off using something like an Arduino or Raspberry pi.

Really better to go stand alone.
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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sat Dec 10, 2022 1:30 pm

legal:
blue print build(including full and complete balancing of the internals)...
find the best head casting...
proper valve job (with proper back cut)....
set squish gap...
"looser" clearances
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby sirdeuce » Sat Dec 10, 2022 7:09 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:legal:
blue print build(including full and complete balancing of the internals)...
find the best head casting...
proper valve job (with proper back cut)....
set squish gap...
"looser" clearances



Set clearances for thinner oils and use the later model oil pump.
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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby Davegt27 » Sun Dec 11, 2022 4:12 pm

I heard that CO adopted CA smog rules so that sucks

My 5AGZE has a small port head on it
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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby allencr » Mon Dec 12, 2022 8:20 am

Less weight & move the engine back.
If you've got a min. weight, add it back under the seats.
//
Also, was thinking a NO2 bottle, a small one under the dash or gutted heater/AC box, like the bottle for paint ball guns.
Elec switch/valve & run thin nylon/teflon tubing inside the heater hose. Using the outlet, run it thru that big return pipe and up inside the hose for heating up that intake idle up thingy.
Else, using the heaters inlet hose to the back of the head, into the cam area( drill & seal, could be easy or a super bitch), and then into the PCV hose.
Good luck.
Last edited by allencr on Wed Dec 14, 2022 6:57 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby sirdeuce » Mon Dec 12, 2022 12:32 pm

Davegt27 wrote:I heard that CO adopted CA smog rules so that sucks

My 5AGZE has a small port head on it


Don't feel so alone, it's the path all will eventually travel.

Most shops can't differentiate between the small and big ports with the GZE. As long as the big port emissions equipment is retained. You would need to mock-up the AFM and hide the MAP sensor, and install an operating EGR. I've done that with the N/A small port. Luckily, the small port was used in Cali so the deception was easy. The T-vis wasn't an issue for some reason, maybe not considered "emissions equipment".

My small port, 7AGE gets through easy enough.
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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby Davegt27 » Mon Dec 12, 2022 1:29 pm

My car (5AGZE MR2) does not have an EGR but has the AFM (no MAP)

but I just had my 2005 Ranger go thru its emissions test and the did not even look under the hood
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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby sirdeuce » Mon Dec 12, 2022 6:00 pm

OBD2 cars, 1996 and later, are tested through the ECU. In Cali, they go from 2000 and newer. They still look under the hood here. If your car smokes, it fails.

As for the EGR. Be prepared to get one installed. Find out what your state will require.
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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby sirdeuce » Mon Dec 12, 2022 6:39 pm

One other "cheat" I had on one of my 4AGEs was a big throttle mod. Had the TB bored and fitted with a bigger plate. Seemed to have better midrange response.
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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby sirdeuce » Fri Dec 16, 2022 10:37 pm

C'mon peeps, still looking for more of those backyard power boosters.
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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby totta crolla » Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:37 pm

Toluene :shock:
We were doing this a long time ago.
Once you get past the crap on the linked page the information is good.
https://knowledgeburrow.com/can-you-add ... -gasoline/

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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby Davegt27 » Mon Dec 19, 2022 4:40 pm

sirdeuce wrote:C'mon peeps, still looking for more of those backyard power boosters.


oh yeah I started with this book back in the 1990s

I had to special order the book
https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-Fuel-Injec ... 0837603005


I tried doing the AFM (air flow meter ) stuff

Sirdeuce you talked about E-manage? the blue? or the ultimate? how did you like it ?
I have the E-manage ultimate but its another project I never finished
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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby sirdeuce » Mon Dec 19, 2022 5:25 pm

Toluene, benzene, and MTBE are reduced to minimal or nothing here in Cali. Sulfur has been removed as much as possible as well. They use other chemicals deemed "safer". Between that and "air quality" the search for alternate fuels became so important. Hydrogen and Ethanol seemed good ideas but implementation was not given two shakes in the thought process. Now Electrons are being pushed as the Holy Grail, but again, marginally implemented.

Yeah, the fight against poor air quality has been a history of wrong turns.

Ok, I went that way. When it comes to our emissions program I tend to get pissy.

I used the blue e-manage and it did a good enough job for where I went. Not sure if it would be a good set-up for a full on build, but for a moderate to medium builld or Ethanol conversion it would do fine. There is a way to extend the rev limit that I didn't explore.
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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby sirdeuce » Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:46 pm

Depending on how far you want to go the e-manage can control A/F, timing, extra injector and even the T-vis. Gets a bit involved with the extra harnesses. Best thing is the ability to put it all back to stock when necessary. Great little piggyback.
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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby Davegt27 » Mon Dec 19, 2022 7:04 pm

I have an E-manage ultimate but for some reason I just stopped working on all my projects (getting old I guess)

so getting back to the low cost mods you can do
#1 is AFR meter so you can see what the engine is doing

next you need to get control of the engine
that means you need an adj fuel pressure regulator

I will try to take some pics of some of this junk I have laying around

another thing is it cost a lot of money to do before and after dyno runs so take everything with a grain of salt
I recommend
https://www.youtube.com/@Garage4age

he does a ton of dyno stuff on the 4AG
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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby sirdeuce » Tue Dec 20, 2022 3:59 pm

Yes, good suggestion. Most overlooked mod is gages.

Along with that fuel pressure regulator a good fuel pump will be a good addition. In the day, I used to upgrade the fuel pump with one from a car with a larger displacement engine. For my 22RE and 4AGEs I would put a Supra fuel pump. At the time it was easiest to cross-over. Wasn't really necessary, but having a better flow rate was cheap insurance against lean conditions.

AFR is almost a must when playing with the stock ECU since things can go south fast. Another good monitoring tool is a knock sensor with both light and headphones. Datalogging software is really helpful.
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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:00 pm

from the Pat Braden book... ;)

Image

Image
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

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Re: Budget build cheats.

Postby jondee86 » Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:46 pm

Some pretty crude adjustments being suggested here, so as suggested above, if you are going
to do some or all of these adjustment you need to have some way of seeing what AFR's you are
getting. The amount of extra fuel you need is determined by the modifications you have made
to the engine... cams, exhaust, intake etc.

Image

Image

And of course you will need to adjust your ignition timing to obtain maximum power at the
rpm you need maximum power. All of which will make your vehicle less of a road car and more
of a race car and feck with your emissions if you care about such things :)

Cheers... jondee86
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