Hachi not starting? [FIXED]

[drifterkid86]

Alright so I found the problem. My car has after market gauges (water temp, oil temp, oil pressure) because the stock cluster ones are broken; anyway I found that the last person who wired the gauges wired them to my IG2 circuit as well as attaching the electric fan to said circuit, so that when 12v power goes to the circuit it gets routed to the fan and the gauges therefore not being able to adequately supply necessary power to the starter. Since the stock wires and circuits are not made to handle after market electronics I removed the gauges and fan from that circuit and wired them to a SPDT relay with an inline fuse and switch which gets power from my battery that way my ignition and starting system has nothing drawing power away from starting the car and I can turn on the fan and gauges after the car is already running and so far this week its been starting and running fine. When running alternator says its putting out 14.5v and when the car is off it has 12.6v and with key in on position while car is off it has 12.06v-12.1v, also I removed my old alarm system because:1 it doesn't work anymore and 2 I found it was wired really terribly behind the driver kick panel.

So club4ag I have a 85 corolla that I used as a daily driver, a few weeks ago I went out to my car one morning and tried to start it and nothing happened it was completely dead no cranking at all.

I tested the battery when the car was completely off and the battery read 12.5v. So I tested the car with the key in the ACC position just before the ON position and the battery read 11.67v so I slow charged the battery for a few hours put it back in the car and it started right up.

The next day I went out to the car and again it wouldn't start; no cranking, nothing like the battery was dead. I Used a brand new multimeter to test for a parasitic draw and there was none. The multimeter showed a 0.34 milliamp draw while the car was off; I heard anything above 0.50 is bad so I'm assuming I don't have a parasitic draw.

I did notice when the car wont start theirs a loud click from the relay behind my glove compartment when I turn the key to the ON position. So I went to autozone and they told me the relay might be bad so I bought a new relay put it in and still nothing.

So my problem is for some reason my car starts and runs fine when I charge the battery but when it sits for a day or two it wont start and the relay behind the glove compartment makes a loud click when I turn the key (Idk what that means)???

Here's the lowdown so far
- The battery Is a new optima red top (about 6 months old).
- I got the battery tested at 3 different places and it passed and held charge.
- I got the starter and alternator tested at 3 different places and they both passed under load.
- Tested for a parasitic draw and there was none :/

Does anyone have any idea what could be the problem????

[BlackStar]

I dunno, check your grounds? How far is your commute? It could be that you aren't driving far enough, so the system isn't recharging. I would check your contacts and grounds as I mentioned earlier.

[drifterkid86]

Battery grounds and positives are all good, is there any specific grounds you had in mind that I should be checking first?
also why would the car start if the battery gets charged if the grounds are bad? :/
and my commute is 45-50 miles one way

[Deuce Cam]

Check the starter relay AND the circuit open relay (col). First make sure the col is seated correctly (it was just dangling behind on the dash on both of my cars when I got them ). Here's a pic for reference (original pic courtesy of 4agshoob here http://www.86garage.com/forums/viewtopi ... 1&start=15):



I circled the col and also the metal mount tab for it. It slides on the tab and clips in, no hardware needed.

Both of my cars developed no start no crank issues which ended up being the wiring/col. Again, the relay was just hanging behind the dash and it's relatively heavy (i.e. stress on the wires). I could hold the key in the on position and get nothing, then lift up the col - so it wasn't dangling under it's own weight - and the car would start right up.

[drifterkid86]

That circuit open relay is the one I changed and its attached to the metal tab correctly.
Anyway today I charged the battery again tried starting the car and again the circuit open relay just clicked. then I tried turning the key again and it started right up??
Tomorrow after work I'm gonna pull off exhaust manifold so I can test the starter.
In the mean time though is there a way to test the starter relay in the fuse box by the battery and circuit open relay behind the glove compartment to see if they're operating correctly?

sorry for all the noob questions, I been trying everything I can think of over and over again for so long -_-

[Deuce Cam]

If the col is clicking you might want to try moving it around, and the wires going to it with the key in the on position. Just hold the key in the on position and grab the col and move all the wires around and see if there's any change. It's worth trying to help rule that out.

[allencr]

...gonna pull off exhaust manifold so I can test the starter.

DO NOT remove the exhaust!!!!!!!!
Jump the starter, put 12V to the small terminal on the starter's solenoid or just to the connector that goes to it. IF the starter doesn't crank the engine, THEN it needs to be removed. It can easily be removed without removing the exhaust!

[drifterkid86]

If the col is clicking you might want to try moving it around, and the wires going to it with the key in the on position. Just hold the key in the on position and grab the col and move all the wires around and see if there's any change. It's worth trying to help rule that out.

I tried that and there was no change, still just that single click when I turn the key to the START position. Do you think it could be a loose wire to the circuit open replay?

...gonna pull off exhaust manifold so I can test the starter.

DO NOT remove the exhaust!!!!!!!!
Jump the starter, put 12V to the small terminal on the starter's solenoid or just to the connector that goes to it. IF the starter doesn't crank the engine, THEN it needs to be removed. It can easily be removed without removing the exhaust!

My starter is under the exhaust manifold I cant get to the positive terminal on the starter solenoid unless I move the exhaust manifold. And the car isnt cranking

[HASport AE86]

That circuit open relay is the one I changed

The COL is the fuel pump relay. It has nothing to do at all with the starter not working.

This could be a ton of different things. Best bet is to do a voltage drop across the starter motor and starter solenoid contacts.

Test voltage at the B+ terminal (12mm nut) of the starter motor and put your ground lead on the starter housing. You should see a 12v drop when the key is turned to "START". Anything less, like 7v, and you have unwanted resistance/load on the circuit, be it in the starter or somewhere else like the ignition switch. This can be a poor ground (corroded=more resistance=less amperage) or a component going bad. Do the same with the starter solenoid contact, the little black butt connector one.

Some of the starter failures that I've found that Autozone would miss are worn solenoid contacts and I've opened the starter motor on one to find the brush packs corroded.

[Deuce Cam]

OP - It does sound like a starter issue, but it could be a bunch of things as Hasport mentioned. I only recommended tinkering with the col because I had the exact same problem and symptoms on 2 separate cars, and it's easy to try.

The COL is the fuel pump relay. It has nothing to do at all with the starter not working.

Mine eventually got to a point where the engine wouldn't crank without the col clipped in on its mount (weird ****, I know). It will still do this if take the col off it's mount and let it hang. Same thing happened on my old car. In my case it's probably a wire connection that's starting to fail.

[drifterkid86]

That circuit open relay is the one I changed

The COL is the fuel pump relay. It has nothing to do at all with the starter not working.

This could be a ton of different things. Best bet is to do a voltage drop across the starter motor and starter solenoid contacts.

Test voltage at the B+ terminal (12mm nut) of the starter motor and put your ground lead on the starter housing. You should see a 12v drop when the key is turned to "START". Anything less, like 7v, and you have unwanted resistance/load on the circuit, be it in the starter or somewhere else like the ignition switch. This can be a poor ground (corroded=more resistance=less amperage) or a component going bad. Do the same with the starter solenoid contact, the little black butt connector one.

Some of the starter failures that I've found that Autozone would miss are worn solenoid contacts and I've opened the starter motor on one to find the brush packs corroded.

I just tried starting the car and it starts up fine??? but I'm about to go out and test the voltage on my B+ terminal anyway; but what I did notice about the car is I'll charge the battery and it'll start fine but when I drive it around for a while and shut it off it wont crank. So I thought alternator was dead and I got it tested and it passed :/

Also Last night after I worked on the car I tested the volts on the battery and it read: 12.6v when the car was off, 12.0v when the car was in the ON position but not running, and 14.4v when running. this morning I tested it and the battery read: 12.4v when the car was off, 11.9v when the car was in the ON position but not running, and 14.4v when running if that makes any difference.

[Red]

"The multimeter showed a 0.34 milliamp draw while the car was off; I heard anything above 0.50 is bad so I'm assuming I don't have a parasitic draw."

You're misreading the ammeter. The clock, radio memory functions, etc. would normally pull about 25-50 milliamps, which is 0.050 Amps. If you were pulling 0.34 milliamps, that would be 0.00034 Amps, something very different.

If you are misreading it, there's a chance you're unfamiliar with it and also misusing it, so you might want to check things again. To check the total discharge on the battery when the car is off, you would disconnect either battery cable (the negative is simpler since there's normally nothing else mounted to the post) and connect the ammeter inline then read it again. Start on the highest amp setting, switch down as appropriate. If you are really only pulling 34 milliamps...that shouldn't pull down a battery enough to make any difference in starting for a month or so.

If you are pulling more power when the car is off, then you start removing fuses and checking each line to see where the power is going.

But before you start tearing into other circuits, I'd double check to make sure the total drain, as measured on a battery cable, is really under 50 milliamps. Which is 0.050 Amps.

[drifterkid86]

"The multimeter showed a 0.34 milliamp draw while the car was off; I heard anything above 0.50 is bad so I'm assuming I don't have a parasitic draw."

You're misreading the ammeter. The clock, radio memory functions, etc. would normally pull about 25-50 milliamps, which is 0.050 Amps. If you were pulling 0.34 milliamps, that would be 0.00034 Amps, something very different.

If you are misreading it, there's a chance you're unfamiliar with it and also misusing it, so you might want to check things again. To check the total discharge on the battery when the car is off, you would disconnect either battery cable (the negative is simpler since there's normally nothing else mounted to the post) and connect the ammeter inline then read it again. Start on the highest amp setting, switch down as appropriate. If you are really only pulling 34 milliamps...that shouldn't pull down a battery enough to make any difference in starting for a month or so.

If you are pulling more power when the car is off, then you start removing fuses and checking each line to see where the power is going.

But before you start tearing into other circuits, I'd double check to make sure the total drain, as measured on a battery cable, is really under 50 milliamps. Which is 0.050 Amps.

That's the way I did it; I unplugged the negative battery wire set my meter to read 20A (the highest) then attached one end of the meter to the negative post and the other end to the cable, making sure all my doors were closed radio was off etc. and the meter read 0.34 then it went down to 0 after a while so I never pulled any fuses

[grappletech]

The 'ole click of death... It happens to my car as well. Im sure its one of those ae86 mysteries lol

[Red]

No, the "click of death" satarted with Iomega drives. Really.

The click of a starter assembly, or a COR relay...much easier to diagnose or fix. Both can be jumpered to eliminate most of the questions. But if the battery is running down, that's a symptom of something else. Which may or may not be coincidental and not the cause of the problem either. "Divide and conquer" works pretty well on cars, too.

[Turtle]

get a length of pipe and tap the starter. sometimes it just needs a little jostling.

also, hotwire the starter like said before. IIRC, if you can get a clip for the solenoid with a length of wire, you can touch it to the positive lead on the battery and you might get a kick. make sure your car isn't in gear and take caution because you'll be handling a live wire. don't do it in a rain storm, don't stand in a puddle, etc. use a thicker gauge wire, like a 10 or 8.

if it kicks, then you may want to consider that your ignition switch isn't communicating with the starter. The problem could be anywhere between the ignition switch and the starter wire-wise.

This happened to my 4runner. I ended up devising a dual-start button with some wire, two momentary switches and a 4-pin relay. didn't feel like switching out the ignition and i appreciated the extra bit of customization.

R

[drifterkid86]

Haven't had time to try and jump the starter yet but will try as soon as I get home from work.
Also forgot to mention my car has a push button start system wired up as follows:
switch #1: AM1 (black/red wire) is connected to one post of the switch, and powers the ACC (blue/red wire) and IG1 (black/yellow wire) that's connected to the other post on the switch when flipped 'on'.
switch #2: AM2 (brown wire) is connected to one post of the switch, and powers the IG2 (brown/white wire) that's connected to the other post on the switch when flipped 'on'.
starter button: wire straight from battery with a 30A inline fuse is attached to one post of momentary switch gives 12v power to other post of momentary switch that's connected to the starter 1 (black/white wire) and starter 2 (brown/red wire).

[taroroot]

Every Corolla I have/had has had voltage drop problems with the ignition starter switch circuit. I carry around a piece of jumper wire to do the direct to battery jump starter trick and that works every time. In on Corolla I paralleled in a bushbutton to the ignition switch. Most of the time that would work, but sometimes even that didn't. On my rally FX I got tired of this, esp at last event having to go out in the rain standing in mud to jump the starter. I rigged a secondary solenoid (relay) that was triggered by the ignition switch and fed the starter battery juice direct through it's primary contact. In effect making a electrically controlled jumper. No problems so far. I bought the solenoid at marine supply place, kinda overkill, it could probably operate the starter motor directly. In fact if you dig around older Fords, they have external starter solenoids that are very similar.
But you see this problem happen more when the engine compartment gets hot, so this may or may not be your problem.

[Red]

I'd want to know if the push-button starter switch was rated for the amperage it needs to carry. If not, the contacts may be arcing out. Bypassing the switch would be a fast test.

My 289 Mustang had one of those handy Ford external solenoids, and while it was handy to reach, they were POSes that routinely needed to be replaced. I'd find another source.

IIRC one way that Toyota held down the price and parts count on these cars was by skipping a full starter solenoid relay in favor of running power through the ignition switch only. What can you say, it generally works as well as anything with more parts to fail.<G>

[drifterkid86]

Every Corolla I have/had has had voltage drop problems with the ignition starter switch circuit. I carry around a piece of jumper wire to do the direct to battery jump starter trick and that works every time. In on Corolla I paralleled in a bushbutton to the ignition switch. Most of the time that would work, but sometimes even that didn't. On my rally FX I got tired of this, esp at last event having to go out in the rain standing in mud to jump the starter. I rigged a secondary solenoid (relay) that was triggered by the ignition switch and fed the starter battery juice direct through it's primary contact. In effect making a electrically controlled jumper. No problems so far. I bought the solenoid at marine supply place, kinda overkill, it could probably operate the starter motor directly. In fact if you dig around older Fords, they have external starter solenoids that are very similar.
But you see this problem happen more when the engine compartment gets hot, so this may or may not be your problem.

I did notice that when under the hood gets hot the car did have more of a tendency to not crank, could you please give more detail how you wired yours up; I may try that if all else fails.

I'd want to know if the push-button starter switch was rated for the amperage it needs to carry. If not, the contacts may be arcing out. Bypassing the switch would be a fast test.

My 289 Mustang had one of those handy Ford external solenoids, and while it was handy to reach, they were POSes that routinely needed to be replaced. I'd find another source.

IIRC one way that Toyota held down the price and parts count on these cars was by skipping a full starter solenoid relay in favor of running power through the ignition switch only. What can you say, it generally works as well as anything with more parts to fail.<G>

Off the top of my head I cant remember what the amperage was rated at, do you know the recommended amount?
Last time the car wouldnt start and I got the click, I did try disconnecting the wires from the push button, the 30A fused wire straight from the battery and touched it to the starter 1 and 2 wires that was connected to the other end of the button and it still clicked and never cranked, which is why I thought it was the starter.

also went out to the car and it started just fine... also jumped the starter and it started (obviously, lol)

[Red]

No, the manual shows two starters (1.0kW or 1.4kW) but that's the draw of the motor itself on the battery cable. They don't mention how much power the ignition side takes at all, from what I can see. That just powers the internal solenoid that engages the starter motor, and it looks like the heavy power connection is made internally when that happens, in the starter assembly.

[drifterkid86]

No, the manual shows two starters (1.0kW or 1.4kW) but that's the draw of the motor itself on the battery cable. They don't mention how much power the ignition side takes at all, from what I can see. That just powers the internal solenoid that engages the starter motor, and it looks like the heavy power connection is made internally when that happens, in the starter assembly.

So I tried starting the car today, it started fine, tested the starter with the B+ and it started. everything seems to be running normal but im still cautious about trusting the car :/

[grappletech]

Any-who back to my "click of death" statement I had to do some research. It took me a few day since the internet in Afghanistan is horrible.

Not too sure if it has photos but, do recall them working the last time I read this at home
http://s-86.com/article_relay.php

[Red]

A "clicking sound" in an AE8x can mean the COR relay behind the glovebox. Or, the clicking may be from the starter assembly solenoid itself. So just to say "clicking", if someone doesn't have a clue, won't help them much.

If the starter solenoid is the clicking problem, then telling folks to add a starter relay is actually wasting their time and money, it is the wrong thing to do. It does not FIX the problem, which is either a bas starter, or a bad power connection to the starter. Fixing either of those problems will get you another twenty years of flawless starting, without adding more wires and an external relay that is going to provide another good failure point for the system. Finding an external relay that is heat-resistant and waterproof, so it can survive in the engine bay near the starter, is not going to be cheap or simple.

SImply fixing the wiring, cleaning it up on the contacts, is all that should be needed. No matter what an "engineering" company on the web claims.

As the rela engineers say, "KISS".

[drifterkid86]

The clicking is coming from the COR behind the glovebox, I did check all fuses and contacts and grounds first; the starter gets power directly from the battery via a momentary push button to start the car (theres no relay in line) which confuses me as to why the COR would click and the car not crank since the starter motor gets direct power from the battery through the button. As for the starter its still pretty new (bought it in march 2012 from oriley's auto parts)

[drifterkid86]

Any-who back to my "click of death" statement I had to do some research. It took me a few day since the internet in Afghanistan is horrible.

Not too sure if it has photos but, do recall them working the last time I read this at home
http://s-86.com/article_relay.php

thanks for the link, ill give it a read to see if it could give me any leads i may have missed

[grappletech]

So my previous post was deleted by a MOD. Trying to help without getting stepped on is hard around here i guess.... I apologize that you didn't get the rest of my suggestion.
Not sure if this is your problem or not but maybe it will help.

[Red]

The COR is not the saqme as the usual relay. There are actually two coil windings on it, and two circuits that can turn it on and hold it on. One for starting the engine, when there is no airflow, and the other during normal run time. If the ECU sees no airflow it will cut power to the COR in the logic that "if the engine isn't sucking air, it isn't running, and we're either parked or crashed so I should shut the fuel pump real fast now to prevent a fire". A break in the air flow sense lines to the ECU can cause an intermittent fault on that.

You can pull the COR and bypass it, offhand I think it is terminals 1-2 that you jump to bypass it and supply power to the fuel pump all the time. But since you replaced the COR the odds are that isn't the problem.

A bad airflow sense signal can come from corroded or chafed wiring anywhere in between the MAF and the ECU, and that line runs from the air intake back through the firewall and can be tested out with a continuity or other check.

If the starter tests out good, and the wiring to the starter tests good, and the COR tests good, odds are the ECU isn't getting an airflow signal and it will shut down the fuel pump. It will NOT prevent the starter from spinning up, so if your starter is actually spinning up, there can also be other fuel problems too. (Bad fuel pressure, bad cold start injector or cold start injector timer, lots of stuff.)

I'd still want to know why your battery voltage dropped overnight. If your high voltage was measured with a "hot" battery freshly charged, that could explain it. Run the headlights for 3-5 minutes or let a freshly charged battery stand overnight to get rid of the "float charge" before measuring voltage on it, to get the real voltage.

[XanManAE86]

So are you having a cranking issue or a running issue? It's hard to tell from all the explanations. The relay that everyone is making a big deal about controls power to the fuel pump, and should only really click on when you're cranking because the afm will close the contacts and kick it on. If you're hearing a click when you key to start position and the engine doesn't crank, then your starter contacts are worn out or you've got a bad engine ground. I solved my engine ground issue with a length of jumper cable with ring terminals on the ends, bolted from the block to the ground next the fuse box. The starter contacts are replaceable and cost about $20 at the Toyota dealer. Contacts are simple to put in when the starter is out of the car, take the small cover off with the 3 8mm bolts and remove the solenoid. You should see your contacts and they are most likely worn if your starter is old. Its only 2 14mm nuts to get them out but make sure when you put new ones in that you assemble them in the same order they came out otherwise you're shorting B+ to ground. Also one contact will be symmetrical and one will be longer on one side, Toyota makes 2 kinds so make sure you've got the correct one.

The copper surface on the bottom edge of the solenoid will need cleaned up and the small copper 90s are your contacts, pic is for a Cummins but its all the same parts. Contacts will cause an intermittent no crank problem and sometimes you can just keep hitting the key and clicking it a hundred times then it will start. Don't forget that the starter is next to your feet so it could sound like its coming from that relay...

[allencr]

Thanks for the pic.
If it had a starter solenoid contact problem, there would be an pretty loud noise coming from it, a heavy metallic thunk from the starter drive linkage & it hitting the flywheel. That sound is very noticable and was not close to any symptom described by the OP.