16v high comp (red top) conversion questions

[Flipp]

hey everyone.

my 16v 3rib blue top is old and tired and is in need of a swap out. ive sourced a 16v high comp red top motor that i may just pick up and drop in. now me being the kind of person who scowers the interwebs looking for all questions and angles before starting, i have a couple of questions for the conversion.

i already know i have to press in a pilot bearing for the rwd, and ill need the T3 small to big port adaptor to use the blue top tvis intake mani OR have the 16v high comp intake mani re-welded to have the TB facing the other way.
no big deal and that all makes good sense to everyone =]

now what i looking for is the coolant routing, since its a front wheel drive motor, i can only assume the coolant routing needs to be switched up a bit.
also, ive read that somewhere that if i had planned to use the high comp injectors, fuel rail...etc...i would need some sort of resistor bypass...??

^these two things are what im needing answers for. now before you guys go on with your "go search noob" or the "this has been covered so many times" crap, just to let you guys know, i have gone and searched on every forums i could find 4age/toyota related and ALL of them either give vary brief info on the conversion or all say the above mentioned stupidity or even reference the OP of that thread to "hit up Club4AG". lol

and since all of you know since the site came back up, all that awesome info is now gone. i hope it comes back but until then everyone either says to go search, and all searches say to hit up C4AG.


its find all this info or just source me a 7rib block, and the 16v 18mm high comp pistons and use the 3rib crank and rods, some big port head work, some cams, 4.7 final, lighter flywheel, maybe ITB's, and aftermarket managemnet and call it a day
still weighing out the high comp blue, or high comp red builds

also if you have opinions on why either build would be more beneficial then the other, lmk.
goal is a good DD, with autoX and drift practice setup.

[ga_goosh]

for the cooling stuff you can take everything from your blue top if you plan on using the mechanical fan. If you have an efan then you can just swap the water inlet and outlet and it will work just the same. I wouldnt bolt up the mech fan to the FWD water pump as it was not designed to support the extra load. for the injectors you can use the blue top injectors and leave the resistor box or you can delete it and use the hi comp injectors. to delete the resistor just cut off the plug and connect all 3 wires to each other on the harness side. also the hi comp injectors have a different injector plug so you will have to change out your plugs. you will have to use the hi comp fuel rail as the injector holes are spaced differently then the large port heads.

as for the heads i would choose the small port. if you are planning on an N/A build the small port has more velocity and flows more efficiently. i would use your blue top cams too since they have more lift and more duration.

your set up sounds solid and affordable with the exception of the itb and management.

[Flipp]

you sir are awesome, thanks for the info and the suggestion on the red top head.

hopefully this post helps someone else looking for the same info and hit all those "hit up C4AG" dead ends.

ok cool. so red top high comp bottom and head, blue top coolant stuff and other accessories swapped over, decide on blue/red injectors, use the red top fuel rail, the blue top cams(or better ones) and some head work, and then after market ecu.

i prob wont use the ITB's till i have everything worked out and ready to be swapped on. ima grab some silver top ITB's with the red top engine purchase. =]

[Jeonsah]

ga_goosh hit it on the nose. However, swapping in largeport camshafts will give you a better top end where as if you kept the smallport camshafts, it would give you more mid range power. Pick whatever one fits you.

[Flipp]

ive read that some use the red top intake and the blue top exhaust cam together? get best of both?

also i see some of you guys are in houston? i go to SA like once a month, when the 86 is all done ill have to make the extra trip over there. i was there a few months back to get my gen coupe custom tuned. not a bad drive from SA

[Jeonsah]

Never tried it before. You can always just try it out because the 4AGE is a non-interference engine. So you dont really have to worry about breaking anything.

[Flipp]

this is from Gabe at T3.

"264 intake and 256 exhaust is great street setup with tons of midrange.

If you want more fun, bring your cams up to 272 intake and 264 exhaust. A little lumpy.

ITB's are only really necessary/beneficial once you get into the larger cam sizes of 272 and up.

But of course ITB's are FUN at any cam size."

what does he mean by "a little lumpy?"

[Illegal_Garage]

lumpy means idle is rough

Max

[Jeonsah]

I would not suggest going to a 272 camshaft if your car is for street purposes and it is stock. A 272 camshaft requires more compression to have a nice idle. Then there are other factors too such as the ecu. 264 May have a small idle issue but 256 will work fine.

[Flipp]

thanks Max =]

ima stick with the tomei poncams. In. 264 Ex. 256

[oldeskewltoy]

thanks Max =]

ima stick with the tomei poncams. In. 264 Ex. 256

As you can see from the dyno plot, both cams are 264.

90+% of the time you drive your car at rpm levels between 2500 and 6000. Note the aftermarket cams make LESS power through MOST of the rpm range.... UNTIL the engine gets a big compression bump (10.3 to 12.2). Once it is bumped to 12.2 to 1, then it is making a bit more throughout the rpm range.

BEFORE you buy camshafts... do some research into "dynamic compression ratio" this will help you decide which camshaft is best for YOUR application.


Other companies making 264 type 4AGE camshafts....
HKS, TODA, Web Camshafts, Tomei, Wade, Kelford

[Deuce Cam]

^Will a high compression 4age like that handle 91 octane fuel?

[oldeskewltoy]

^Will a high compression 4age like that(12.2 to 1) handle 91 octane fuel?

it might.... or might NOT.... you might have to adjust ignition (or cam) timing to get it to run without ping.... if I de-shroud the chambers.... it should have no problems.

[Flipp]

awesome, thank you guys for the info. one more thing,

i found a way to sort of look over the old C4ag but its not perfect. just dont want to swap it and run into the small details of something i overlooked. found on another forum that i should swap all of the original electronics, ie dizzy, tps, sensors, etc. but i think they were talking about the JDM high comp?

[ga_goosh]

found on another forum that i should swap all of the original electronics, ie dizzy, tps, sensors, etc. but i think they were talking about the JDM high comp?

yes that would be the easiest way to do this swap. the ae92 electronics are a little different. swapping all the blue top electronics over to the red top engine lets you use your original ecu and wiring harness with out cutting any wiring. you can use the ae92 distributor and ecu (for best results) but you will have to modify your bluetop harness to take the ae92 plugs or you would have to modify a red top harness for RWD. it can be done tho. you would also have to do this same thing with a JDM engine as well.

i dont exactly know for sure but on the cam thing of using a small port intake and a large port exhaust cam is supposed to help evacuate exhaust gasses faster but if you plan on doing some head work the head work will do the same thing as running staggered cams. Oldeskewltoy can explain this better then i can. he is the one i read this info from one of his older threads. maybe he will chime in on this issue.

[oldeskewltoy]

i dont exactly know for sure but on the cam thing of using a small port intake and a large port exhaust cam is supposed to help evacuate exhaust gasses faster but if you plan on doing some head work the head work will do the same thing as running staggered cams. Oldeskewltoy can explain this better then i can. he is the one i read this info from one of his older threads. maybe he will chime in on this issue.

acknowledged by most 4AGE engine builders(AND Toyota **).... the exhaust side of the head (in stock form) is a restriction. The band-aid method of "fixing" this in the past was to put a longer duration cam on the exhaust side. This would allow the exhaust valve to remain open a little bit longer.* A well ported exhaust port that can evacuate the exhaust gasses, no longer needs mixed duration camshafts.

* - some argue that because of increased valve clearance on the exhaust side that the longer duration cam made up for the increase in clearance


Why? Whats wrong with mixed duration camshafts? THEORETICALLY.... by mixing camshafts you tend to narrow the powerband - the peak is limited by the shorter duration cam, while a tiny bit of low end is lost because of the increased overlap of the longer duration cam.

** - Afterall... if the port size was appropriate... then why increase the port size for the 20V heads???

[Flipp]

thanks Ga_goosh and OST, you guys rock!

ive already talked over the head work with OST i plan on sending him the head and getting his magic done to it.

so heres the run down i have so far:
red top high comp bottom and head,
use big port intake mani or get small port intake mani re-welded
pilot bearing for RWD
blue top coolant stuff, swap all of the original electronics, ie. dizzy, tps, sensors, etc. and other accessories,
decide on blue/red injectors, use the red top fuel rail,
Tomei Poncams/Weber cams (still looking into it),
some head work,
and then after market ecu.

eventually ITB's when i get all that sorted out.

[ethergore2]

thanks Ga_goosh and OST, you guys rock!

ive already talked over the head work with OST i plan on sending him the head and getting his magic done to it.

so heres the run down i have so far:
red top high comp bottom and head,
use big port intake mani or get small port intake mani re-welded
pilot bearing for RWD
blue top coolant stuff, swap all of the original electronics, ie. dizzy, tps, sensors, etc. and other accessories,
decide on blue/red injectors, use the red top fuel rail,
Tomei Poncams/Weber cams (still looking into it),
some head work,
and then after market ecu.

eventually ITB's when i get all that sorted out.

I have a re-welded manifold for cheap if you go that route.

[Flipp]

thanks Ga_goosh and OST, you guys rock!

ive already talked over the head work with OST i plan on sending him the head and getting his magic done to it.

so heres the run down i have so far:
red top high comp bottom and head,
use big port intake mani or get small port intake mani re-welded
pilot bearing for RWD
blue top coolant stuff, swap all of the original electronics, ie. dizzy, tps, sensors, etc. and other accessories,
decide on blue/red injectors, use the red top fuel rail,
Tomei Poncams/Weber cams (still looking into it),
some head work,
and then after market ecu.

eventually ITB's when i get all that sorted out.

now i get to add some aftermarket pistons to the listing =]
suggested brands? i know everyone has their reason for one or the other. what would be a good high compression for 91 pump gas? (i really need to get stationed somewhere else with 93 or higher =\)
or would it be more sound to do a stock rebuild, a mildish cam upgrade, lighter flywheel, after market ecu, 4.7 final and call it a day?

[Flipp]

hey errbody, just real quick..im looking for this black resistor box ive been told to cut off and wire twist. now the guy who i bought the motor from thought he would be a cool guy and sold my harness...what an ass right?
anyways, i was lucky enough to find someone on here with a set of red top pig tails for the injectors and i plan to wire them in place on my blue top harness. i was looking over the red top motor i have and didnt see the resistor box, sooo im going to assume the resistor box is on the harness? or do i need to look over the red top a little more? was looking for a picture so i can use it for reference. if you have one please post it up. dont want to go cutting off at random =P thanks in advance!

[ae86xy]

The resistor box is not on the harness just the yellow pigtail now for the resistor box usually it's mounted under the air intake, or click here a member here made this.

http://www.ectoyotas.com/%20forum/viewtopic.php?p=6868

[chemtrails]

Since i see Gabe from T3 is commenting on this thread i wanted to ask a question directly to you about Redtops and using your adaptor plate, i have 3 different occurrences with 3 different motors on 3 different cars with the same issue.
they took apart their motors to get rebuilt, to find their intake manifold tabs cracked and broken
these were all JDM stock redtop 16v 4ags, daily driven and tracked on occasion, using a USDM MAF intake manifold with no EGR
I used the same adapter plate for a few years without an issue, other than air leaks due to bad install
have you heard or seen this before?

[Flipp]

The resistor box is not on the harness just the yellow pigtail now for the resistor box usually it's mounted under the air intake, or click here a member here made this.

http://www.ectoyotas.com/%20forum/viewtopic.php?p=6868

dude, your awesome, thanks for the link. ima search around on that forums to see what over info i can find.