All Plug No Play - 20V ST Conversion

Gabriel82
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All Plug No Play - 20V ST Conversion

Postby Gabriel82 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:04 pm

Hi everyone,

I've exhausted ideas on what can be keeping my car from firing up. What was supposed to be "Plug & Play" has been a complete headache

History
My car was originally an SR5 automatic. I converted the car to manual many years ago. I never had an issue starting the 4AC motor. A few years ago I purchased a 20V Silvertop motor. I had the motor torn apart and rebuilt by Dan Beachnau.

Components
Stock rebuild with Tomei Cams (Pretty Much OE Replacement). Still using OEM Cam Gears.
Tweak 20V Haltech 750 Conversion harness with 1NZ coils purchased from Battle Garage.
Brand New GTS Fuel Tank and Pump.
New NGK Plugs
SQ Engineering Honda Starter Adapter with Starter
Using a Toyota Air Temp Sensor.
JSP Custom Header (Currently no O2 sensor or wideband plugged in).
Idle Speed Control Valve is plugged in and I do have a hose running to the stock location on the cam case.
Stock 20v Injectors. Serviced and tested by RC Injectors.
SQ Engineering Coolant Reroute.
SQ Engineering Dizzy Blockoff Plate

Current Symptoms
I am getting 40psi of fuel pressure when cranking. The car is not starting. No pops as if misfiring. I have tried starter fluid and there's a few pops here and there but not enough to get the engine going.

I have moved the engine harness ground back and forth from the firewall and block multiple times in an effort to get it to start. The motor is grounded to the chassis. I have a 2 gauge wire going from the passenger side of the block to the passenger strut. I have a 2 gauge wire going from the driver side of the block going to the driver side strut. The battery is grounded to the driver strut. I also have a ground going from the back of the head to the firewall.

Cam from Tweak Performance has been super helpful and has went out of his end to confirm the harness is good. We used a noid light to confirm the signal to the fuel injectors. We confirmed all four coils are getting spark. Confirmed wiring orientation and continuity.

I reached out to Grant and BattleGarge and he can't seem to figure out why it doesn't start, not even misfire. We went over the basemap and tried multiple times to start the car. We checked synchronization, the TPS is working properly.

I am running a vacuum hose from the small vacuum nipple under cylinder 4 directly into my haltech 750. The map sensor on the harness is not plugged into anything.

Grant had me call Haltech and they did a remote tune. They played with setting and still couldn't figure out why the car isn't starting. They were using 5° and the BattleGarage map had 388°. Both TDC offset angles were unsuccessful. Yes the ignition was enabled.

I did crank the car without spark plugs and I did not see any fuel/mist. I tried a second set of used injectors and still nothing.

Engine Bay Fuse Box - Checked Fuse #7(Engine) & Fuse #8(EFI) are new. I did add the Relay to R1(EFI). R2 (Engine Main) is still the original one that came with the car

Driverside Kick Panel - #3(Engine Main Relay, EFI Main Relay, Charge Warning Light) is good.

Battery - Upgraded AM1(Engine Main Relay) to a 80AMP and AM2(Ignition S/W) is good.

If you've made is this far I appreciate it. I welcome any help. This has been far from plug and play. I hope I'm missing

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jondee86
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Re: All Plug No Play - 20V ST Conversion

Postby jondee86 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:02 pm

Some information here... https://www.club4ag.com/forums/viewtopi ... 13&t=21153

A few things to check based on your post...
1. The small tits underneath each ITB are not suitable for a MAP sensor vacuum point.
2. The ISCV should be connected to the fat connection on the round cylinder thing on the
firewall end of the engine intake manifold. The spigot on the cam cover does zip as far
as starting the engine is concerned.
3. Where are you getting your cam and crank triggers from for the ECU ignition timing ?
4. Does the ECU drive the ISCV wide open when you crank the engine ?

Cranking ignition timing between 5 and 10 deg BTDC should work and basic idle timing
starting at around 15 deg BTDC will get your engine running if everything else is hooked
up correctly. I'm guessing that your ECU came with a base map already loaded ?

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

Gabriel82
Club4AG Enthusiast
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:58 pm

Re: All Plug No Play - 20V ST Conversion

Postby Gabriel82 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:15 pm

Hey Jondee,

I had to load the basemap into the Haltech.
1) I'll move the vacuum somewhere else.
2) The ISCV is connected to that fat tube on the intake manifold.
3) It's still working off the Distributor. The section that is meant for spark plug wires was removed.
4) I have not checked if ISCV valve when cranking. I'll give that a shot.

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jondee86
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Re: All Plug No Play - 20V ST Conversion

Postby jondee86 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:59 pm

There should be a vacuum source on the #1 ITB for the fuel pressure regulator. You could
tee into that or any hose that connects to that round thing that the ISCV connects to.

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Gabriel82
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Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:58 pm

Re: All Plug No Play - 20V ST Conversion

Postby Gabriel82 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:58 am

Update:

So I moved the MAP sensor vacuum point from the small tab underneath ITB #4 and used a T-connector to connect it between vacuum hose running between the tab on top ITB 4 and the cylinder section where the ISCV connects to.

I reloaded the base map from Battle Garage. I did confirm the injectors were set at the correct size 295cc. I tried adjusting the TDC offset angle from 5° to 10° to 15°. No success. Originally it was set at 388°. I also played the with Max Cranking RPM which was originally set at 300. I went as high as 800 and it didn't start.

I then uploaded another map a buddy had shared modified for me. The big difference was that he changed the trigger type from the 4AGE to Generic-Multi-Tooth-Single Tooth Home. Trigger location: Cam, Number of teeth: 24, Number of Missing Teeth: 1, TDC Offset Angle: 698°. I changed the Max Cranking RPM from 200 to 500rpm.

I held the starter for a little longer than usual but sure enough the car did start and held it's idle. I also tried changing the TDC offset angle to 5°, 10°, and 15° with no success.

When i tried to start it again it wouldn't start. I figured the injectors were flooded and the battery got worn down.

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jondee86
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Re: All Plug No Play - 20V ST Conversion

Postby jondee86 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:45 pm

OK... I don't have a Haltech and each manufacturer sets up their software differently,
but a lot of settings are the same across all ECU's...

1. Cranking RPM: this sets the point at which the ECU changes from "cranking" settings
to "running" settings. Leave it set at 300 rpm.
2. Cranking Timing: this is a fixed setting only used during cranking to help the engine
start. Leave it set at 5 deg.
3. Ignition Timing: this is the timing that the engine will use once it has passed the
cranking rpm threshold. The ECU will use values from the ignition timing map.
4. Trigger Settings: if the engine started and ran with the generic settings then you
should be able to leave them as they are.
5. TDC Offset Angle: this angle sets the relationship between the actual physical
position of the crankshaft and the trigger signals received by the ECU. The manual
will explain in detail and provide a method for checking that when the ECU is providing
ignition timing at (for example) 15deg BTDC, the spark is actually firing at 15 deg BTDC.
You can check this with a timing light once the engine is idling.

It is not unusual for an engine to be too rich or lean when first started, and you may
have to play with the master fuel trim to get it to run without stalling. If you have
been cranking on it a lot without the engine firing you likely do have a lot of fuel in
the cylinders. It is a good idea to have a spare set of fresh plugs to swap in before you
try again.

Remember, to begin with you need to get the engine to start and idle consistently. The
base map or borrowed map may not be correct for your engine and if you immediately
try to drive on it and give a workout without proper tuning you can do a lot of damage
to the engine. If you have a WBO2 meter get it working and make sure your AFR's stay
within the safe zone.

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

Gabriel82
Club4AG Enthusiast
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:58 pm

Re: All Plug No Play - 20V ST Conversion

Postby Gabriel82 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:11 pm

Jondee -

Thanks. I used a timing light to see how close my TDC offset angle was to top dead center. I did try getting it going again. It did roughly idle but not without throttle. I am ordering a fresh set of plugs since they are burnt already. I'm also ordering a wideband o2 sensor per my tuners request.

Gabriel82
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Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:58 pm

Re: All Plug No Play - 20V ST Conversion

Postby Gabriel82 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:22 pm

Update:

I got the car running well. I connected the vacuum hose running from the Haltech directly to the vacuum nipple right below that fat tube (on top of cylinder 4) that also has an opening for the ICSV vacuum hose.

I also made adjustments to the TDC Offset. I did rotate the Cam Angle Sensor/Distrubtor to get cylinder 1 firing at 15degrees on the Crank Pulley.

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jondee86
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Re: All Plug No Play - 20V ST Conversion

Postby jondee86 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:26 pm

Well done :) Where you have the MAP sensor hose connected is actually the best
place as it gets an averaged signal from all four throttles instead of just from one.

Get it tuned, have fun, drive safe :)

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

Nick94tt
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Posts: 250
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:43 am

Re: All Plug No Play - 20V ST Conversion

Postby Nick94tt » Wed Sep 30, 2020 8:13 pm

Grats on getting at least to running. ^_^

The wide band shouldn't even be optional at this point, glad you're getting one. With all the sensors that 750 can handle you can log and track just about everything. ^_^

For plugs on lower performance setups (I'm not knocking your motor, just referencing things making a lot more than 100hp/liter) I've seldom run into an issue with plugs I couldn't solve with a scotchbrite pad, some kerosene, and some feeler gauges. Obviously plugs with detonation damage (or 100k+ miles worth of wear and tear) need not apply. I don't typically run iridium's though.

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