Reviving an old chassis, alternative parts?

zze86
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Reviving an old chassis, alternative parts?

Postby zze86 » Wed May 12, 2021 8:15 am

My son has recently gotten interested in cars and asked me about my old chassis I've been keeping around. I told him it was an AE86 and his eyes just got real big. <- yeah, your dad was cool at one time (actually I was in the chassis before it was cool so maybe not, lol). He wants to build it up and I think it would be a great father-son project so I guess it's time to get her back on the road.

Unfortunately, I stripped the car down and dumped a bunch of parts from the chassis long ago and am basically starting from bare chassis. Looking at a 7age20v build (I actually have a silvertop head laying around but am missing one, one!!! of the throttle bodies) or 3sge BEAMS swap. Unfortunately, it seems like a lot of parts have gone extinct since I was last in this chassis and need to look for alternative parts. <- If I'd known the ae86 platform was going to blow up like it did I would've bought them long ago, lol.

What are my options for a fuel tank? What are my options as far as fuel sending units? <- I'd like to not have to go to a fuel cell
What are my options for a rear end? <- my chassis has an open diff but would like to move onto something stronger and with a LSD since I would have to rebuild everything anyways. Celica-Supra rear ends appear to be completely gone from the junkyards now.
What are my options for a steering rack? I still have the power steering rack in the car, would like to move to a manual rack. AW11 manual rack used to be an alternative but they seem to have dried up as well
What are my options for JDM bumpers? <- had a zenki with lip on one of my other AE86s and would like that setup again but not looking to spend the insane prices people are asking nowadays. Aftermarket is fine. J-Blood used to be a nice alternative. They still making replicas of those?
What's a good coilover setup with a good amount of travel? I don't want to have to cobble together a coilover setup again. Cutting and welding shocks just to use sub-par shock inserts...

TIA!

totta crolla
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Re: Reviving an old chassis, alternative parts?

Postby totta crolla » Fri May 14, 2021 11:35 am

I guess a good question might be to ask what the car is going to be used for? You suggest decent travel suspension and if you really must have coilovers then B6 Bilstein inserts and a weld on coil over conversion kit will give you that at a decent price. Combine it with 14" 2.25" springs of around 160lb to get the required travel. Personally l would keep the power steering, can gain back any perceived lost 'feel' by increasing the caster and camber by a small amount.

zze86
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Re: Reviving an old chassis, alternative parts?

Postby zze86 » Sat May 15, 2021 7:36 am

I don't have any real plans for it at the moment. Just something fun the kid and I can enjoy together, building it up and driving it. Street cruising. Fun twisty roads. Probably autoX and HPDE it as well. I think he has dreams of drifting and such but hopefully we don't go there for a few years after we fix it so it stays fixed lol. I don't want something crazy fast or overpowered for his safety and my sanity. From dynos a stock 3sge BEAMS has plenty enough power for the chassis and would be more reliable than a 7ag20v build I hope.

I know people are going to say build it for such n such class but with it being gutted and definitely not going to be stock it'll be hard to be competitive in whatever class it gets stuck in. Plus I don't really want him to concentrate on the competition aspect of it per se. More just enjoying the driving experience in the 86 and learning how to drive.

The problem I have with using shock inserts and sleeves was to get the necessary amount of travel from the shocks after lowering the car we were using shock inserts from a SW20 and a few other models. Of course that could've been my overzealous self using high spring rates. I don't recall exactly what rates I was running but I know I didn't go overboard lowering the car and I remember hitting the bumpstops quite often.

totta crolla
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Re: Reviving an old chassis, alternative parts?

Postby totta crolla » Sun May 16, 2021 9:20 am

Bilstein make a specific B6 insert for the AE86 and it is the correct length to give enough travel.

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Jeonsah
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Re: Reviving an old chassis, alternative parts?

Postby Jeonsah » Mon May 17, 2021 5:27 am

I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall to have seen your son's eyes haha.

1. If you have a GTS rear end, you can just build it up. Weir Performance will sell big axles and rebuild the diff for you with an LSD.
http://www.weirperformance.com/

2. There are all sorts of bumpers out there now days. Unfortunately JDM bumpers are rare now and cost an arm and a leg. There are reproduction zenki jdm bumpers out there but they're slightly less expensive but still expensive. If you really really want JDM bumpers then search on instagram for "shockthemob" "jacmob". He can get them and other JDM stuff for you.

3. Fuel Tank - I believe you can get a spectre reman from autozone or some box store. You can get a sender unit from ebay.

4. Steering rack is easy. You can get a reman from most places or get the T3 short gear ratio one.

5. Coilovers have evolved a lot since back in the day. Honestly, there are so many options out there, just do some digging to see what works best for you.
https://shop.battlegarage-rs.com/collec ... ring-parts
https://technotoytuning.com/toyota/ae86

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oldeskewltoy
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Re: Reviving an old chassis, alternative parts?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu May 20, 2021 9:18 am

What do the both of you want when you are finished? It tends to help, if you have a plan first.

As far as fuel tanks... Spectra TO1B - when available is the correct aftermarket fuel tank. As far as sending units... one appear to still be available - 83320-19715, the other 2 are no longer available.

As far as JDM bumpers, you can find them now and again.... be prepared to spend $$$

As far as the rear axles - https://panicmade.com/drivetrain/p/ae86 ... ement-axle

As far as diffs, many are still available, Motive Gear makes some final drives, and others are out there.

LSD - pretty much all the Japanese brands still carry something

To many the BEAMs is the easy answer, and while it does give 200hp, while keeping mostly stock, there are compromises involved in fitting it. A well built 7AG can be built to make 200hp, albeit it isn't a cheap build to accomplish that...

Do you need 200hp? That is up to you, but anything over 130whp will make a stripped AE86 quite fun.... and to build 130whp 4AG will not cost nearly as much
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

zze86
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Re: Reviving an old chassis, alternative parts?

Postby zze86 » Thu May 27, 2021 7:20 pm

I have a pretty good idea of what I want out of the vehicle. Just a well mannered street, summer only vehicle that we can autoX or HPDE with. But she gotta be sexy to represent!

I actually found some parts tucked away in the garage loft! The dashboard, some of the center console, gauge cluster hell even a set of Datsun 280zx wheels! Maybe some of the wiring also...I dunno I have to check. I recall stripping down a AW11 back then as well. I did order up that gas tank; it was on Amazon of all places!

At ~170whp the BEAMs is a bit overpowered for the chassis. My ideal power goals are ~150whp/130tq. Fast enough to keep up with today's traffic without overpowering the chassis too much and keep it slow enough for me not to worry too much about the kid. But that kind of power from a NA Xage variant was challenging back in the day. Hell, 130whp NA was challenging back then. Not sure how much of that has changed but just some rough guesstimating in my head and the costs would be within $1000 of a stock BEAMs swap and not quite as reliable. Maybe I'm wrong? It HAS been 20 years...

I'd prefer a manual rack simply because it kept the engine bay cleaner, it wasn't that much harder to operate and also made swapping engines quick as well. No AC, no PS, modified radiator support. IIRC I could get the engine out at around 30min. Where do I find the racks exactly? The T3 says "product not available"...

Since I'm still un-decided on engine choice at the moment I figured I'd start on chassis stuff and leave the drivetrain for later.

Sepheroth86
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Re: Reviving an old chassis, alternative parts?

Postby Sepheroth86 » Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:17 am

Sounds like you and I are in the same boat these days.

IF I decide to get back into the car. I am unsure where to go with it... I would think that many things have improved over the years. (other than finding original parts)

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Jeonsah
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Re: Reviving an old chassis, alternative parts?

Postby Jeonsah » Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:56 am

zze86 wrote:I'd prefer a manual rack simply because it kept the engine bay cleaner, it wasn't that much harder to operate and also made swapping engines quick as well. No AC, no PS, modified radiator support. IIRC I could get the engine out at around 30min. Where do I find the racks exactly? The T3 says "product not available"....


You can use an AW11 rack as well. It will require some swapping of other parts to get it to work but you can do some googling and find it. I have one in my car and it works great. Check the regular box stores and see if they have it. You can also check to see if they carry the AE86 manual racks as well. I think that came in the latest year of the AE86 (1987) and only some cars came with them.

zze86
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Re: Reviving an old chassis, alternative parts?

Postby zze86 » Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:35 pm

I've been thinking about what I REALLY want from this build and I've come to the conclusion that the theme of this build is essentially reliability and longevity with enough power to keep up with today's 300hp+ minivans. I imagine my son will take over the car eventually, and I hope it'll still be going strong with plenty of support by the time he does.

Reliable in the sense that the drivetrain is as bulletproof as possible, utilizing as many stock parts as possible, even if they are from other cars so that parts sourcing will be as painless as possible. Longevity in the sense that parts will be readily available for many more years to come.

Been doing a ton of research and I think I've settled on the rear end: Ford 8.8.

I totally forgot this was a thing! When I started drifting away from the scene this had just started to become an alternative swap. Weighing up the pros vs cons, power goals and longterm thematic goals this seems like the best choice.

A quick engineering alternative options analysis:
1) Keep the stock rear end. ~110lbs, 1410mm hub-to-hub. Will need to be rebuilt anyways. Would require expensive aftermarket axles to handle power goals and not sure how it would handle long-term abuse.
2) MA46 Celica-Supra rear end. ~140lbs 1425mm hub-to-hub. Should be able to handle power and long term abuse goals just fine but unobtainium at this point.
3) early Toyota pickup rear end. ~140lbs, 1397mm hub-to-hub. Essentially same as MA46 rear end. More readily available with good aftermarket support due to offroad scene but still getting hard to find parts/support for.
4) Volvo 240T rear end. ~125lbs, 1400mm hub-to-hub. Although plentiful, LSD options are limited and they're not all that much stronger than the stock unit.
5) Ford 8.8 from mid-90s Explorer. ~155lbs, shortened length of 1435mm. Can just use two PS side axles instead of having custom axles made. Can be found with helical style LSDs from the factory. Relatively plentiful supply. Tons of parts and support available.

So while the Ford 8.8 is ~40% heavier than the AE86 rear end it should be able to handle near anything that a 4-cylinder can throw at it. Parts are relatively cheap, should be easy to come by for years and there's even conversion kits to get the hubs to 4x4.5 bolt pattern.

The biggest deciding factor is the fact that any other option other than the stock unit requires major surgery: cutting and welding of the mount points. I only want do this once. Sure, the balance is thrown off a bit with increased sprung weight but I figure if we bake this in from the beginning spring rates, damping etc can help account for it. IIRC, Weight balance in a stock ae86 is something like 55F/45R anyways so this will probably help shift some weight rearward.

I'm almost settled on a engine/trans also but need to do a bit more research.
Last edited by zze86 on Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

zze86
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Re: Reviving an old chassis, alternative parts?

Postby zze86 » Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:13 pm

Sepheroth86 wrote:Sounds like you and I are in the same boat these days.

IF I decide to get back into the car. I am unsure where to go with it... I would think that many things have improved over the years. (other than finding original parts)


I've been floating ideas in my head over the years.

The first was a Toyota 2zzge swap. Best sounding production 4-cylinder IMO. Yup, better than Honda B-, F-, K- series. Better than 4age. Hence the screen name. A custom adapter plate for RWD trans would need to be figured out but doable. The problem with the 2zzge is that it has no good provisions for engine mounts in a FR application. The factory engine mounts are on the side (so pointed in the front if in a RWD application) and on the transmission bellhousing. There are some m12 accessory holes on the block that one could possibly use but IMO, not very good for engine mounts.

Then I thought about the F20C from the S2000. Too much $$$ back then and even more so now. The F20C alone is getting to be a rare and expensive beast. Used examples are like $4000+ now! Plus, my thinking was too much of purist then.

The 3sge BEAMs looked like the ideal candidate but was like $5000 for the engine/trans/ECU combo back then. Add in conversion parts and you were somewhere around $6500 all in. Prices are about half that now so doable. Good power characteristics but it sounds anemic in comparison to these other great 4-cylinders.

2GRFE mated to a W-series trans. If I were building it for myself I think I would go this route. 270hp-300hp variants with tons of torque. Readily available for relatively low cost. This engine actually likes to rev with good midrange and high end pull but Toyota kneecapped it to 6200rpms for emissions/reliability/longevity. I'd Megasquirt it and let it rev to ~7500. Some of the race guys running this engine report it makes good power up there. Too much power for the chassis though and would require other mods for the chassis to keep up. Definitely too much for the kid. From a $$$/HP perspective though this wins the best value award.

I never really re-considered the 4AGE. As good as that engine sounds (Yamaha really did a bang up job with the acoustics tuning) it just doesn't have enough OOMPH for regularly ole street driving. Sure blasting down mountains doesn't require much HP in a lightweight chassis, it sounds cool and all but I'm in the upper midwest...what mountains?

zze86
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Re: Reviving an old chassis, alternative parts?

Postby zze86 » Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:15 pm

Jeonsah wrote:
zze86 wrote:I'd prefer a manual rack simply because it kept the engine bay cleaner, it wasn't that much harder to operate and also made swapping engines quick as well. No AC, no PS, modified radiator support. IIRC I could get the engine out at around 30min. Where do I find the racks exactly? The T3 says "product not available"....


You can use an AW11 rack as well. It will require some swapping of other parts to get it to work but you can do some googling and find it. I have one in my car and it works great. Check the regular box stores and see if they have it. You can also check to see if they carry the AE86 manual racks as well. I think that came in the latest year of the AE86 (1987) and only some cars came with them.


yup, looked for the AW11 manual rack as well but no luck. Thanks for the suggestion though!

I mean I guess I could just run the PS rack until I can actually source one of the manual ones.

zze86
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Re: Reviving an old chassis, alternative parts?

Postby zze86 » Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:22 pm

Who or which company would be best to speak with regarding getting a hold of a real J-Blood kit? They used to be here in the states, who's their distributor now?

zze86
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Re: Reviving an old chassis, alternative parts?

Postby zze86 » Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:31 am

Been doing some obsessive research and I think I've settled on a swap, a little different than what's out there right now so will probably require some custom stuff. Probably custom engine/tranny mounts. Going to try and avoid adapter plates/custom flywheels for engine/trans and custom weld a bell housing to mate to engine. The idea is to avoid having to source expensive "custom" or hard to source JDM parts later on. No offense to any of the aftermarket suppliers but not sure how well things will be supported 5-10 years down the line.


Does anybody know how much HP and/or pressure the stock fuel pump can put out?

I know the stock FI system can handle light boosting. The stock fuel pump can flow enough for 4agze injectors, 360cc/min IIRC. Can the stock fuel pump support high pressure fuel systems like in 3sge BEAMs and K-swaps?

zze86
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Re: Reviving an old chassis, alternative parts?

Postby zze86 » Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:37 pm

Went digging and I found some rare memorabilia that I'm thinking about trading or selling for parts. What do you guys think it's worth?

1984-1987 Toyota Source books. <- these are not simply sales brochures. These were dealer only books used to train sales staff. Got them when I was working for Toyota years and years ago.
The rare TRD Corolla Levin/Trueno Bible.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1akZpCy ... sp=sharing