Wanting to replace Kelford 193-C Camshafts

[yabaiani]

Hello. I was wondering what is a good camshaft to have a decent cold start, hot start, smooth idle? I currently have my 193-C camshaft from Kelford and am not too happy with it. I think these are the specs:

298/288 Degrees advertised duration. 9.52mm/9.15mm lift


What can I swap into the car to replace these? Any recommendations?

[totta crolla]

Whilst l appreciate your post is about changing the cams it maybe possible to get closer to your requirements with
careful tuning of camshafts and ecu.
Having less overlap at TDC will help idle, retard inlet and advance exhaust cams to get less overlap.
Cold and hot starts are all about ecu calibration, hot start needing more crank fuel.
Cold start using just enough extra fuel to keep it running after the initial fire.
Increase ignition timing to help with running after the start.
TPS vs RPM (alpha-n) is probably the best strategy with your cams.
If you are on carbs.. change the cams!

[yabaiani]

Whilst l appreciate your post is about changing the cams it maybe possible to get closer to your requirements with
careful tuning of camshafts and ecu.
Having less overlap at TDC will help idle, retard inlet and advance exhaust cams to get less overlap.
Cold and hot starts are all about ecu calibration, hot start needing more crank fuel.
Cold start using just enough extra fuel to keep it running after the initial fire.
Increase ignition timing to help with running after the start.
TPS vs RPM (alpha-n) is probably the best strategy with your cams.
If you are on carbs.. change the cams!

I have the 1.8L stroker kit, ITBs, hi comp motor. Would anything be different based on that?

[totta crolla]

I'd not expect those things to make too much difference.
In a way it is the standard cam followers that cause the compromise as these effectively limit the cam lift potential, any perfomance cam then has to rely on long duration to get the job done, it is the long duration that can cause driveability issues.
Catcams produce a range of high lift cams, l use these with a decent under bucket shim kit.
http://www.catcams.com/products/camshaf ... ge=english
and l can get a reasonable idle at 950rpm
Careful tip in calibration allows crisp response too.

[yabaiani]

I'd not expect those things to make too much difference.
In a way it is the standard cam followers that cause the compromise as these effectively limit the cam lift potential, any perfomance cam then has to rely on long duration to get the job done, it is the long duration that can cause driveability issues.
Catcams produce a range of high lift cams, l use these with a decent under bucket shim kit.
http://www.catcams.com/products/camshaf ... ge=english
and l can get a reasonable idle at 950rpm
Careful tip in calibration allows crisp response too.

Is the cam angle, duration, what I have to worry about more or the lift? I saw Toda has some decent options, but not sure what to get.

https://www.toda-racing.co.jp/en/produc ... g4v-1.html

[totta crolla]

I might be up for swapping a set of these for your Kelfords..
http://www.catcams.com/products/camshaf ... ge=english

[yabaiani]

I might be up for swapping a set of these for your Kelfords..
http://www.catcams.com/products/camshaf ... ge=english

This is what I was more looking for. Is the duration / lift ok to use on the bottom one vs the top given my kelford 193-c specs?

[allencr]

...cold start, hot start, smooth idle?

Still got stocks around?
I wouldn't consider any cold and/or hot start problem much of a cam problem.
Other then that is it OK?
Have any other idiosyncrasies that you've accepted but maybe might not wanna live with?

[yabaiani]

...cold start, hot start, smooth idle?

Still got stocks around?
I wouldn't consider any cold and/or hot start problem much of a cam problem.
Other then that is it OK?
Have any other idiosyncrasies that you've accepted but maybe might not wanna live with?

I know all of this may be premature as the engine is about to go in the car and then go to a tuner. It’s just…I don’t want the car to have a crazy lumpy sound, I just wanted the clean NA sound of the ITBs and a relatively smooth idle and “sensible” sounding engine at idle.

[jondee86]

Whilst l appreciate your post is about changing the cams it maybe possible to get
closer to your requirements withcareful tuning of camshafts and ecu.
Having less overlap at TDC will help idle, retard inlet and advance exhaust cams to get less overlap.
Cold and hot starts are all about ecu calibration, hot start needing more crank fuel.
Cold start using just enough extra fuel to keep it running after the initial fire.
Increase ignition timing to help with running after the start.

This ^^^^^ . You have installed "race" cams with a fair bit of duration. And if the
engine is tuned for maximum power high in the rev range (lots of overlap) it will
need a high idle and have a decent lope

BUT if you are using an aftermarket ECU and have vernier cam pulleys, you can
explain to your tuner that you want the car to run more like a car with a stock
engine, and he can "de-tune" the engine. Reducing the valve overlap, closing the
inlet valves later, less ignition advance etc, will take the sting out of the tune.
Then you can have a lower idle, easier starting, less fuss and so on without
replacing the cams. That's all in the tune !!!

And should you ever decide that you would like a bit more power, it is just a
question of adjusting the engine tune... no need to change anything else

Cheers... jondee86

[yabaiani]

Whilst l appreciate your post is about changing the cams it maybe possible to get
closer to your requirements withcareful tuning of camshafts and ecu.
Having less overlap at TDC will help idle, retard inlet and advance exhaust cams to get less overlap.
Cold and hot starts are all about ecu calibration, hot start needing more crank fuel.
Cold start using just enough extra fuel to keep it running after the initial fire.
Increase ignition timing to help with running after the start.

This ^^^^^ . You have installed "race" cams with a fair bit of duration. And if the
engine is tuned for maximum power high in the rev range (lots of overlap) it will
need a high idle and have a decent lope

BUT if you are using an aftermarket ECU and have vernier cam pulleys, you can
explain to your tuner that you want the car to run more like a car with a stock
engine, and he can "de-tune" the engine. Reducing the valve overlap, closing the
inlet valves later, less ignition advance etc, will take the sting out of the tune.
Then you can have a lower idle, easier starting, less fuss and so on without
replacing the cams. That's all in the tune !!!

And should you ever decide that you would like a bit more power, it is just a
question of adjusting the engine tune... no need to change anything else

Cheers... jondee86

I get that I can tune the car. My other question I had is that with the headwork I have done…can I downgrade to a lesser duration, less lifted cam? Or does the head now need the expected lift on the cam that is in it now.

Basically… because the engine shop did the headwork to support that cam, am I able to move from a 298/288 9.0 lift came to a 264, 7.9 lift came without any issue?

[jondee86]

Mechanically there is no problem. Just drop the new cams in, check the valve clearances,
set the cam timing and you are good to go. Without going back through all your earlier posts,
IIRC you packed this engine with a lot of high performance/race orientated parts, and chose
long duration cams. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that the headwork carried out was
aimed at supporting the high rpm/high output operation of the cams. In other words, to get
as much air as possible into and out of the combustions chambers.

Large high-flowing ITB's, enlarged intake and exhaust ports, possibly four into one extractor
and 2.5" exhaust system. None of this really helps mild 265 degree cams that typically will
drop in to a stock engine and run off a factory ECU. The issues you will have to deal with are
that the intake port velocity will likely be too low for smooth idle and the exhaust is likely
too large to scavenge efficiently.

Like a factory stock TVIS engine with the TVIS stuck open, the engine will be down on torque
in the low rpm range. Raising the idle and playing with the tune should sort that. A smaller
exhaust helps make torque by keeping the exhaust gas velocity up, but see how the engine
works with what you have on the car first. It may be fine. If you are more focused on how
the car drives rather than making maximum power, your tuner can be conservative with the
ignition timing and that makes for a quieter and smoother ride.

Cheers... jondee86

[yabaiani]

Mechanically there is no problem. Just drop the new cams in, check the valve clearances,
set the cam timing and you are good to go. Without going back through all your earlier posts,
IIRC you packed this engine with a lot of high performance/race orientated parts, and chose
long duration cams. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that the headwork carried out was
aimed at supporting the high rpm/high output operation of the cams. In other words, to get
as much air as possible into and out of the combustions chambers.

Large high-flowing ITB's, enlarged intake and exhaust ports, possibly four into one extractor
and 2.5" exhaust system. None of this really helps mild 265 degree cams that typically will
drop in to a stock engine and run off a factory ECU. The issues you will have to deal with are
that the intake port velocity will likely be too low for smooth idle and the exhaust is likely
too large to scavenge efficiently.

Like a factory stock TVIS engine with the TVIS stuck open, the engine will be down on torque
in the low rpm range. Raising the idle and playing with the tune should sort that. A smaller
exhaust helps make torque by keeping the exhaust gas velocity up, but see how the engine
works with what you have on the car first. It may be fine. If you are more focused on how
the car drives rather than making maximum power, your tuner can be conservative with the
ignition timing and that makes for a quieter and smoother ride.

Cheers... jondee86

I will then just hang tight and do the initial tune and see how the car runs. If it doesnt run well...I'll figure out how to downgrade the cams to have a quiet, smooth idle.

[mad_86]

You got Full Race spec!! Lol Headwork,cams,& tune just tune it for gains , once you drive it like that you’re not gonna want to go back. Lol

If you want a street set up, stock head, tomei street 264 cams, stock ECU. tomei made those so they are essentially drop in, tune will always pull more power tho.