upgrade alternaor

[socal1jzsupra]

ok guys I know that the stock alternator for my 85 gts is a 60 amp alternator, I want to get a higher amp alternator in my ae86. is there any other alternator that will bolt on with higher amps? I was making some research but I cant figure it out... any feed back will be greatly appreciate it, thanx.

[Red]

Yes, there are two. All three of them are the same diameter frame, just deeper, so they will bolt right up. The other two are 70A and 80A as I recall. You could try the archive.org web site, look for the topic in the copy of the old forum messages if no one comes back to post specifics. Or try the Autozone web site, I think they will tell you the frame size for our 60A alternator and then show similar ones, you are looking for the SAME diameter, same frame size. There are two even larger ones (more amps) that physically are fatter and may not bolt up, so 80A is your limit.

Offhand, I think a fully electric late 80's MR-2 is one of the cars they are stock from. Check the alternators on that, if they come up the same 60-70-80A models and frame size, that's the one.

[socal1jzsupra]

i just wanna get 70-80amps... i just want something that will bolt on perfectly. ima be running electric fans and maybe a small sound system nothing crazy.

[Red]

OK, the archive.org site is offline this morning so I went looking at Autozone. Check out
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/produc ... arison.jsp
which compares two alternators for a 1991 MR2. Wrong car, I know.

But you'll see the one on the left says "130mm stator diameter" and the one on the right is 118mm stator diameter and 70Amps. The one on the right will bolt up and fit the classic AE8x. What you are looking for is the "118mm stator diameter" and that is the size we need. There's another MR2 or other Toyota similar year, full power equipment, with an 80A version too. If you can dig that up, the 70 or 80 will do for you.

The 130mm units will NOT bolt up.

And those are as good as it gets. If you take the model number, any good alternator shop or parts counter should also be able to grab an 80A alternator off the shelf and compare the two, it is obvious when they are side-by-side that the 70 and 80 are just "longer" bodies but identical in every way.

Rebuilt alternators can be a RFPITA on these cars, even the lifetime warranty ones go bad, so paying the extra for a replacement including labor is not a totally bad idea unless you really like crawling under the car. I had mine bumped up from 60 to 70 that way, because there were no 60's within fifty miles and they had to put in SOMEthing. I think it was a whole $20 for the bump up.

[hachigo87]

I used a spare I had off of a 7M out of a Supra and haven't had a problem yet, I believe its a 70 amp unit. Don't remember where I read about the swap at, but it sure helped in a pinch seeing as I have way too many spare odds and ends for my Supra..

[Deuce Cam]

Don't the 20v alternators have higher amps? I'm not sure what it would take to get it working on a 16v though.

[Red]

16 v is an alternator with a burned out regulator.
20v is even worse. You trade amps for volts, one or the other, and now you would need a custom regulator too.

I don't know where a 20v alternator comes from but you won't wind a SIMPLE way to just get more power by looking at them. Don't think it will be cheaper, either.<G>

Our cheap little riceburners have alternators that put out 13.8-14.4 volts most of the time. A real car has a real alternator that puts out 14.3-14.4 volts without the low end voltage sag. I think Toyota "HAD TO" be proud and faithful and use a Japanese alternator but in the 1980s Hitachi and Denso were both way behind the state of the art.

They also made the worldwide business news for "just in time" inventory techniques, and one of those was that every day they would give out baskets of alternator parts to HOME WORKERS who would take them home and assemble alternators to be delivered to the customers the next day. Yup, we probably have hand made alternators, from home workers paid by the piece.

Like the joke goes, the miracle is that the dog talks at all.

[KonaTrueno723]

This is useful info here about alts.& amps

Red=I did see the difference in the 130 & 118 stator sizes. Got both alts at the shop n i noticed it. Was gonna use the larger of the two, but now,,nope!

[Red]

I don't know that the 130 won't fit, and would be real curious to know if it can. But I'm quite happy to leave that adventure to someone else.<G>

[socal1jzsupra]

ya I just bought an alternator of a 91 corolla gts... its bout 118m diameter and it has 70amps on it, exactly what I need... ima see tomorrow if bolts on.

[jinx]

mine also is off a 7m turbo supra as well. 80A iirc and bols right up

[socal1jzsupra]

hmmm i might just return that last alternator i got and get an 80amp alternator instead lol

[KonaTrueno723]

Yeah & I'll report back for the 130 as well

[Strobelite]

has anyone on here used an aftermarket high output alternator for their sound system ? like DC Power, Mechman, Iraggi ?

[Red]

Anything that fits the same alternator profile will work, and if the maker can't figure out whether it will fit, walk away.

The other issue with this car is that the alternator is designed to run with an engine that turns 7500rpm and cruises at 4000+ rpm. That will burn out some alternators, depending on the pulley they've spec'd with it. Again, if the maker can't figure that out, walk away.

[alfun]

For those of you who upgraded to a higher amperage alternator, did you also upgrade to a thicker gauge wire? The wire that goes from the alternator to the positive terminal on the battery?

What are your thoughts on the wire upgrade, is it recommended or really needed?

[Red]

Needed? Arguably not, my 70A alternator hasn't set me on fire. Yet. Whether the wire can handle the extra amperage would depend on the temperature and the actual amperage being pushed, and that's actually unlikely to exceed the load that a stock alternator puts on the wire.

This is because an alternator doesn't put out anywhere near the rated power until you are at cruising speed, when 60A would be more than enough anyhow. At lower speeds, the bigger alternator will give you more power sooner--but at those lower speeds it is unlikely to supply the 60A that the stock wiring is rated for.

So you're probably safe on the wiring unless you are running some honking huge loads.

Recommended? Absolutely! As a Delco engineer explained to me, even with a stock alternator you would be better off upgrading from the stock wiring, which is designed to be cheap, to something like a 4AWG cable or 8AWG cable. The auto industry uses SAE sizes, which are about 2 gauges off. Toyota used a 10SAE output wire, which is about 12-14AWG. WHen you move to a heavier cable, regardless of the alternator you have, the cable has less voltage drop, so the alternator does not have to work as hard, which means it steals less power from your engine and develops less heat. And hot alternators burn out faster. So upgrading the cable mainly is being kind to your MPG, your hp, and your alternator's longevity. And if you are using "maximum" power at any rpm, the thicker cable will allow you to get just a little bit more power out of the system, too.

The numbers are easy enough to run if you use ohm's law, but you can also find calculators onlein for "cable voltage drop" which will tell you for xx feet of cable (measured round trip, even if half of that trip is in the grounds) of xx gauge and a load of xx amps, the voltage drop will be so many tenths of a volt.

8AWG would be better than stock, 4AWG would already be more than most folks could see any real gain from, so somewhere in between the two and the budget, 4-6-8 would all be good. Then the trick is to properly crimp fittings on each end, because cable lugs are not easy to crimp and crimp properly without the right tool$.

[Rogue-AE95]

Then the trick is to properly crimp fittings on each end, because cable lugs are not easy to crimp and crimp properly without the right tool$.

What about soldering the wiring to the connectors? I'm still learning about car electrical stuff. I've had to replace a few connections on my engine harness because of corroded wiring. I ended up soldering in new wire to replace a factory crimped connection split.

[Red]

Solder can work. Twist-n-tape can work. The question is, work how well, for how long, when who does it.

The "official" rule is that you don't use solder when there can be any vibration present, because solder itself creates a hard point on the stranded wires, and then the vibration moves the hard point, work hardens the copper strands, and they break apart. So the solder WILL create a new failure mode. That can be avoided if the solder conection is firmly attached to a solid surface, i.e. clamped or taped or secured down.

But crimped connections simply don't create that problem, so crimping is indeed preferred, and that's why the factory crimps instead of soldering. Ignoring whether you've made a good solder joint, and assuming that you have.

The problem with crimps is that unless the crimp is properly made, it has other problems. A "proper" crimp will be fully tinned seamless copper. Not bare copper or yellow metal or aluminum, but tinned copper so it can't corrode. And it will be sized correctly to match one or two wire guage sizes. If the crimps are made on some worn-out machine in China, they won't fit properly, and the crimp will pull apart. Likewise the crimping tool must be sized to match, some of the stuff from Horror Freight is made on worn-out dies in China that match nothing. The $5/500pc set in the local dollar store is also worthless that way.

A good ratcheting crimping tool (which supplies uniform even correct pressure to the crimp) is about $50. Good crimps from an electrical supply house, can be 25-50c each, even in the big box. But if you make a crimp, with a good tool and a good crimp, you will literally tear the wire apart before you can tear it out of the crimp.

Unforunately when it comes to harness repairs, all those "pack cons" (pack connectors) are made by different brands and each one has their own "proper" crimping tool and proper replacement inserts. Sometimes soldering is a safer bet than trying to use a random crimping tool and trying to crimp it right. That's a personal skills call, unless you buy a replacement set (crimps & pins & tool) for the same type of connectors.

Wire nuts, ScotchLocks (guillotine "Y" splices), can work 20-30 years on a car without any problem, but again the "rule" from their makers is not to use them on cars either, because of vibration problems. But as they say in horse racing, you pays your money, you takes your choices.

[Cavi Mike]

The "official" rule is that you don't use solder when there can be any vibration present, because solder itself creates a hard point on the stranded wires, and then the vibration moves the hard point, work hardens the copper strands, and they break apart. So the solder WILL create a new failure mode. That can be avoided if the solder conection is firmly attached to a solid surface, i.e. clamped or taped or secured down.

But crimped connections simply don't create that problem, so crimping is indeed preferred, and that's why the factory crimps instead of soldering. Ignoring whether you've made a good solder joint, and assuming that you have.

Soldering is bad for vibration points? You've got to be kidding me. That whole post is the biggest crock of BS anyone has tried to spoon feed me in a very long time. It should be deleted just for the fact that someone may read it and think it's true.

Recognize this?





Those are the tinsel leads on the back of a subwoofer (and every other speaker on the planet). NOTHING endures more vibration than that. Are you seriously going to try to tell me that crimping is better? NO. WRONG. Soldering will ALWAYS be better - especially for high-vibration connections. The ONLY reasons why soldering wouldn't be used is because it takes too long and it's easy to mess up if the conditions can't be strictly controlled. Crimped connections will always be sub-par but they're quick to do and it cuts costs big time.

I don't know who told you soldering creates a weak point but you need to tell him he's an idiot.



As far as which alternator you should use, I went with a Delco 105amp, but I have a single-cammer so it may not fit in a GT-S.

[totta crolla]

Soldering is bad for vibration points? You've got to be kidding me. That whole post is the biggest crock of BS anyone has tried to spoon feed me in a very long time. It should be deleted just for the fact that someone may read it and think it's true.

A bit strong a statement this when it seems the Jury is still out on the subject.

[Red]

Mike, there are two different "Delco" companies now, both make alternators, and there are lots of different specs on them. Some of the old Delcotrons are great alternators. So are some of the new models, with incredibly wide rpm ranges. And that's the catch for the GT-S, the engine has a 10:1 rpm range from idle to redline, and most alternators can't handle that. Toyota and Hitachi both refuse to release the specs on the OEM alternators, so replacing them is a matter of either doing your own engineering work or "you pays your money takes your choices" as they say at the horse track.

As to soldering being unfit...the idiots who say that include the USAF and USN. Speakers are a special case where the wires not only vibrate but move, and the gross motion of the wires would create a problem with the larger mass of a crimp. Speakers also prove the point that vibration makes soldered joints fail. Yes, I know a shop that repairs old high-end speakers and they routinely resolder "eight failure points" in one set of tweeters, where the solder points and the wires themselves fail from movement over the years.

And by the way, you may notice that your solder "joints" are not joints in free space on a harness wire. They are solder joints in the recommended position, at or immediately supported by mounting to a bulkhead. Exactly where the idiots say they are most reliably done when they are suitable.

An engine harness is not a speaker. The idiots happen to be right, but you're free to ignore them.

[Cavi Mike]

I'm a machinist and when we get military contracts, they're the most wide-open toleranced items we make. Military standards are very poor and it's why I always laugh when people love to use the term "military grade" or my favorite "aircraft aluminum." If you want to see real stuff, look in the the medical industry. By the way - that stuff is all soldered. But if you want to believe crimping is better - go right ahead.

Back to the alternator - I'm using a Delcotron CS130 alternator from a Caprice police cruiser. Ironically it was designed for low-rpm engines but it's still the most reliable alternator they made. Alternators typically burn out because of low-rpm use anyways because they can't supply the current needed when they're spinning slow.

[Red]

Actually the CS130 is one of their finest designs and spec'd for both cars and light trucks. It puts out better than 1/2 rated output at 3000 RPM but is rated for continuous duty up to 15,000 rpm and intermittent duty at 18,000 rpm, thanks to dual sets of sealed bearings and a lot of careful design work.

Perfect for a 4AGE engine with a 10:1 rpm range, if you can fab the parts to bolt it up. And if you have, you might find a cottage industry offering to sell more of those.


Milspec and "medical" grade are just two more examples of why things have to be put in context.

[ae86-20v-black]

supra 7m celica gt 3sge and camry will fit, i have a 90amp supra 7mgte turbo alt and run great!!!!!!!

[Red]

Will fit...on a 4AGE? What year are those 90A alternators from?

[Deuce Cam]

I was researching the tec arts eco car the other day and ended up coming across this (bottom of page): http://tecarts.com/catalog/engine.html. The same here http://www.alternator.jp/products/list. ... fd67061bd6

Super Alternator

Lightweight low-resistance!
Conversion connector with mounting bolts ON!
Genuine Amp: 60A
Strengthening Amp: 90A
¥52,500

It's $520 lol.

[Red]

$520? Oh heck, that's just OEM pricing, OEM capacity, although they did some nice work on the anodizing for the body and the pulley. Sure is prettier than stock.<G>

[Deuce Cam]

It's the 'lightweight low resistance' bit that interests me. Their 86 eco concept car supposedly also has a lightweight low resistance starter (I'm assuming it's the one they sell in the link above). They claim these parts, along with many others, helped achieve 40 mpg highway.

Obviously the tune/engine management are mostly responsible for the increased fuel economy. It's still interesting nonetheless.