16v Itb swap

[tony17090]

Hello I am currently swapping to Itb's from a 20v silvertop into my 16v. My question is if I keep the stock maf and modify the intake box from the itbs would I be able to keep the stock ecu from the car and it run properly? Would I need to flip the wires from the 20v tps so I get the correct voltage reading for the stock 16v ecu to work? The reason I ask is because I had a megasquirt ecu for this swap but I had a break in at my workshop. They stole the ecu a set of wheels I was going to put on my 86 and mostly tools. I need to get my car up an running again because in the meantime because I am stuck driving my weekend fun car to work everyday and its not the greatest on mpg. Hope to hear some insight on this thanks in advance.

[LongGrain]

you're going to need a standalone..

[tony17090]

Thank you for your reply. I guess I am going to have to look for another megasquirt or get a 16v complete intake.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

You don't need a standalone. It should run just fine on the stock ECU. It's been done before.
I am running a full turbo blacktop on my GZE ECU as well and it runs great.

[mikeyee]

You don't need a standalone. It should run just fine on the stock ECU. It's been done before.
I am running a full turbo blacktop on my GZE ECU as well and it runs great.

AFM ecu? or non-AFM ecu?

here's a checklist Chodog made on the ol' c4ag
http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=51345

[yoshimitsuspeed]

You don't need a standalone. It should run just fine on the stock ECU. It's been done before.
I am running a full turbo blacktop on my GZE ECU as well and it runs great.

AFM ecu? or non-AFM ecu?

here's a checklist Chodog made on the ol' c4ag
http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=51345

AFM
The AFM ECU is better for making any kind of VE mods because the AFM allows it to compensate. MAP based ECUs do ok if the changes are small enough or if the changes are equal across the board. For example if you increase the VE 5% across the board you could just increase fuel pressure to even out. The trouble is if you do something like cams and take the VE from say 85% at 3000 RPM to 75% but at 7000 RPM the VE goes from 80% to 90%. There will be no easy way to compensate for that change in the VE curve. The AFM on the other hand will measure the change in airflow and adjust accordingly. People have run over 8 PSI and over 150 WHP on an NA 16V ECU. It's silly to think that the mods from adding ITBs would be outside it's range of adaptability.

You will see my protest to that thread on the last page and his response to it which really makes no sense to me. The NA ECU should have no trouble running ITBs and yet he gets all bent when I mention the possibility. He also doesn't mention ever trying it or scientifically proving it wouldn't work. Not that that would mean anything to me because I have seen it work.

Now there is the other side of this and that's performance. If you are looking for performance then bolting ITBs to a stock motor is a $#!! mod with a horrible $/HP ratio. This leads me to believe that 95% of the people who want to do it are either misled or just want to do it for looks and sound. If you just want to do it for looks and sound then go for it. I would always suggest investing in a wideband to confirm it is running how you want it and to give you the ability to fine tune it if needed.
If you are going for HP then you will want to do most the things he lists in his thread first because they will give you the gains and the slight possibility that the ITBs may actually give you some gains now that the motor is breathing so much better.
In the end I don't really believe that ITBs on a 16V are a worthwhile mod in any scenario short of a full blown race motor. You can buy a 20V for little more than the cost of an ITB conversion and actually gain a good bit of performance.

[chohdog]

yoshimitsuspeed we have a difference of opinion, and that's fine. I'm unsure of what you didn't understand about my reply. You can make anything work with anything, like using the 16v ECU run ITB's. My statement is, why? In its stock configuration it will not run right, and making it work is a lot of effort. The only reason I can think of that justifies it, is if you're really cheap. The benefits of standalone far outweigh the slightly upped cost of entry (especially when considering megasquirt).

I'm repeating myself again, but the article was written to answer questions that the average club4ag'er will ask. If you can program your own ECU, wiring everything up yourself, then you're not in the typical demographic.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

yoshimitsuspeed we have a difference of opinion, and that's fine. I'm unsure of what you didn't understand about my reply. You can make anything work with anything, like using the 16v ECU run ITB's. My statement is, why? In its stock configuration it will not run right

What have you done to prove it won't run right? What does it do? Why doesn't it run right?
Why have others done it and had no issues?

It's not about having a difference of opinion. It's about the fact that I back my research with data that I have gathered by testing the setups with the proper to monitor the results and or studying the results of those who have done the same.
I have not seen an NA 4A with a wideband attached but I have seen someone install ITBs on their 4A and report no negative issues.
I have also seen people strap superchargers and turbos on their 4A and monitor AFRs and performance. I am curious why ITBs could throw off an ECU when you can push 50% more air through it with forced induction and have no issues.
If you have experienced leanout issues or running problems with the ITBs and NA ECU maybe we can talk about them and try to understand why. Possibly even simply figure out how to fix it.

I also go back to my car. Yes the GZE ECU is a different animial but just slightly. With some very light tweaking it has run my BT amazingly well. I wouldn't call it ideal. I wouldn't go out of my way to run this setup on a GZE ECU but if your car already has a GZE ECU and wiring it's not a horrible option. Sure I could get more power out of aftermarket engine management but that can be said for any setup.

So why exactly does it not run right and what have you done to confirm this?

[yoshimitsuspeed]

but the article was written to answer questions that the average club4ag'er will ask. If you can program your own ECU, wiring everything up yourself, then you're not in the typical demographic.

My point exactly. Why tell someone they need to program their own ECU and wire up aftermarket engine management when they don't need to?

[ronny]

WOW....

why would anyone run a ITB setup with a stock ecu... its absolutely retarded....

IF you want to run stock ecu you need:
1. rom tune - tech tom - setup - OE reflash / chip - tuned for 4 throttle. - map based ecu ONLY.
2. or if your smart enough to crack the OE codes in the chip and reprogram on your own.

if you want to run stock ECU with afm + itb you need:
1. a brain - why the hell would you do that.. lol seriously?
2. common sense - this setup is just absolutely RETARDED... christ...

running a "stock" ecu on ITBs is obsurd and waste of time.. WASTE OF TIME!!!!!! don even BOTHER - yoru better of spending your money else where..

its like your trying to control TPS / map and your fuel values with a freekin ATARi.. - in order for it to work correctly and that means 75-80 percent optimum, is to have the ECU rom tuned... A standalone needed for it to work PROPERLY and EFFICIENTLY......

[yoshimitsuspeed]

if you want to run stock ECU with afm + itb you need:
1. a brain - why the hell would you do that.. lol seriously?
2. common sense - this setup is just absolutely RETARDED... christ...

The silvertop runs with an AFM. Not really sure what the big deal is or why you find this concept so offensive.
What makes it RETARDED? What evidence to you have to prove it?

running a "stock" ecu on ITBs is obsurd and waste of time.. WASTE OF TIME!!!!!! don even BOTHER - yoru better of spending your money else where.

I haven't dissagreed with this however I think 99% of the people who want to run ITBs on their 16V are wasting their time regardless of what ECU they are running. Once you have $10,000 into the motor ITBs might be the next logical step.
That however is not the topic of this thread. This thread specifically asks if the NA ECU can run ITBs correctly and I still have yet to see a hint of even ever so slightly proven evidance to say it cant, More importantly I have seen it done so it would take a lot to convince me it doesn't work.

In the same way chohdog's thread is titled

ITB Onto 16V checklist

this along with his posts gives the impression that there is no other option and that all these components are required.
He says running this ECU or that ECU is not possible but he does not say why or how this was proven. If the title of his thread was this is how I think you should do ITBs then purely focused on his preferred path I wouldn't have a problem with it.

I do have a problem with statements like this.

Adding four throttle bodies drastically changes the fuel and ignition requirements so far that even the best "piggyback" fuel computer can't compensate well enough for them.

that have no proof behind them. You are saying an ECU can take 8 PSI boost and 50% increase in volume of flow without a piggyback and some mild mods like messing with fuel pressure or injector size but it can't handle the "drastic" fuel and ignition requirements of ITBs?
Where is the proof? What has been tested? What kind of AFRs are seen with ITBs on the stock ECU? What happens to the timing? How did you prove this?

I see plenty of people pull $#!! out of their @$$ on these boards and that is all it is until you can sit down and prove that you have come to your conclusion in a tested and repeatable scientific manner.
So where's the proof?

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Blacktop 11:1 compression, ITBs.
380 CC injectors.
4runner coil
DSM T25
Water to air intercooler integrated into plenum
3SGTE AFM slightly tweaked. GZE AFM worked untweaked.
7 PSI boost
Running on a stock GZE ECU on pump gas.


0-60 at 6 PSI at 7K feet.
The spedo lags but it hits 60 before redline in second.

[chohdog]

This thread specifically asks if the NA ECU can run ITBs correctly and I still have yet to see a hint of even ever so slightly proven evidance to say it cant, More importantly I have seen it done so it would take a lot to convince me it doesn't work.

=

"Aliens do exist. I have seen them myself. Nobody has shown me any proof that they don't exist. Show me proof that they don't exist."

[yoshimitsuspeed]

=

"Aliens do exist. I have seen them myself. Nobody has shown me any proof that they don't exist. Show me proof that they don't exist."

Are you kidding me?
Well I guess if you aren't going to take this seriously then you shouldn't be surprised when no one else takes you seriously.
I take this stuff pretty seriously and I take the scientific method pretty seriously.
Ironically your post should be more aimed at yourself than me. I have provided evidence and facts that back my position. You have given nothing to back your position. Most likely because you don't have the skills, knowledge or research to back your claim so you are forced to fall back on goofy statements that apply to yourself more than they do me.

[Yosuke]

Blacktop 11:1 compression, ITBs.
380 CC injectors.
4runner coil
DSM T25
Water to air intercooler integrated into plenum
3SGTE AFM slightly tweaked. GZE AFM worked untweaked.
7 PSI boost
Running on a stock GZE ECU on pump gas.


0-60 at 6 PSI at 7K feet.
The spedo lags but it hits 60 before redline in second.

Im sorry but is that your car ? If so, you just backed up my thoughts on ur credibility.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Im sorry but is that your car ? If so, you just backed up my thoughts on ur credibility.

How does physical proof that something works disprove credibility?
I'm sorry if you don't like my car. I don't expect it to give everyone wood. The fact of the matter is that it works. It runs great and has done so in this configuration for over 10k miles.
Prove me wrong. That's all I'm asking.

[ronny]

if you want to run stock ECU with afm + itb you need:
1. a brain - why the hell would you do that.. lol seriously?
2. common sense - this setup is just absolutely RETARDED... christ...

The silvertop runs with an AFM. Not really sure what the big deal is or why you find this concept so offensive.
What makes it RETARDED? What evidence to you have to prove it?

[quote="ronny"]

its OK for a silvertop, because it is MADE properly and ecu is setup for it.. HOWEVER a 16v ecu is not made and programmed to run itbs efficiently even with an AFM... its just a waste of time... it may run, but it will not run properly.

is that your car??

[Yosuke]

Im sorry but is that your car ? If so, you just backed up my thoughts on ur credibility.

How does physical proof that something works disprove credibility?
I'm sorry if you don't like my car. I don't expect it to give everyone wood. The fact of the matter is that it works. It runs great and has done so in this configuration for over 10k miles.
Prove me wrong. That's all I'm asking.

Yes, i must apologize for that comment, we all have our own taste in cars.

I guess this topic of discussion depends on what everyone's definition of what "works" may be. It may work to your standards but someone else may have higher expectations of what should "work" out of a ECU. Im not saying you are wrong, ive ran AE101 ITBs on a JDM MAP ECU + S-Afc (fuel enrichment piggyback) but it didnt really fulfill all the necessary variables that i expected out of it. But nevertheless, it worked.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Yes, i must apologize for that comment, we all have our own taste in cars.

Thanks

is that your car??

Yes

I guess this topic of discussion depends on what everyone's definition of what "works" may be. It may work to your standards but someone else may have higher expectations of what should "work" out of a ECU. Im not saying you are wrong, ive ran AE101 ITBs on a JDM MAP ECU + S-Afc (fuel enrichment piggyback) but it didnt really fulfill all the necessary variables that i expected out of it. But nevertheless, it worked.

its OK for a silvertop, because it is MADE properly and ecu is setup for it.. HOWEVER a 16v ecu is not made and programmed to run itbs efficiently even with an AFM... its just a waste of time... it may run, but it will not run properly.

is that your car??

So what have these cars done? What in your experiences was lacking? Were AFRs off? Did you get knock because the VE curves were changed too drastically? What exactly do you mean by "don't run properly?
Yosuke I agree that the MAP ECU would not be the best choice as it does not have the ability to compensate for changes in VE. I'm still curious what exactly was so far from ideal?

Since no one has given me any of this data I cannot know what your idea is of worked properly or not.
I can however tell you that my car idles and drives at stoich just as it did as GZE 16V and GTE 16V. When I stomp on it my AFR curve is nearly identical to either of those previous iterations. It starts out at stoich and at mid RPM mid throttle it starts to go richer. By redline WOT I am around 12:1 AFR.
When I advanced the timing to 10 deg I started to get knock right as I pulled away from a stop at very low RPM mid throttle. I believe the GZE probably advances timing there a lot due to the low comp and the fact that it isn't boosting there. This didn't seem to agree with the 11:1 compression on the BT. It was the only place I have seen knock though and so I dropped it back to 8 deg. I am confidant I could gain a good bit if I had full control over timing but that rings true for any setup stock or heavily modified.
EGTs get pretty high when running full boost in closed loop but well within acceptable levels. If anything temps come down when you get on it and it drops into open loop.
When I first got it running it had a pretty serious tip in stumble but with some light tweaking I got it to where it only does it when it's dead cold. Once it's warm it's fine. I suspect this is mainly because the GZE has such a large volume of air between the TB and the head. Switching to an NA mani and TB was fine but I suspect it's programmed with a delay where the ITBs just respond so much quicker. That is all theory though.
So my idea of running right is running close enough to stock that you can't tell the difference using the right tools to monitor and prove it. Are there gains to be had with aftermarket engine management? Of course there are.

I don't have dynos but if you want to compare performance here is a 0-60 on my old GZE 16V longblock and ECU with the same DSM T25 I am running now at 12 PSI.
It has a little more low end grunt but once it gets over 6k The BT wails on it at only 6 PSI. It would have done a lot better with a slightly harder launch too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95IDNLMu28E

I should also note that I still do not have the VVT wired properly. I don't know how I had it wired on this run but it was either wired to the SC relay and on till redline or disconnected and off the whole time. There is a noticeable difference between the two on my dyno app so I suspect it would be a little better once it was hooked up right. I thought about wiring it to a window switch but I will probably just focus on finishing my MS3.

[ga_goosh]

instead of trying to get the other person to "prove you wrong" why dont you share some of your tuning knowledge and straighten this argument out. no offense but i do agree with you but you havent stated any facts either. plus it will give a thread for others to learn from and reference to if needed. you seem to be very knowledgeable on the subject of tuning but you havent schooled any one on the subject. can YOU elaborate from your experiences? i would very much like to see your opinion on the subject. also what is your definition of "working properly" it cant be the fact that it runs right?

[yoshimitsuspeed]

instead of trying to get the other person to "prove you wrong" why dont you share some of your tuning knowledge and straighten this argument out. no offense but i do agree with you but you havent stated any facts either. plus it will give a thread for others to learn from and reference to if needed. you seem to be very knowledgeable on the subject of tuning but you havent schooled any one on the subject. can YOU elaborate from your experiences? i would very much like to see your opinion on the subject. also what is your definition of "working properly" it cant be the fact that it runs right?

I feel I answered most of those questions in the post above. Considering your post is a day after mine I assume you read it. If you have any questions beyond that I am happy to answer them.
As far as what I consider running right. From the post above yours.

I can however tell you that my car idles and drives at stoich just as it did as GZE 16V and GTE 16V. When I stomp on it my AFR curve is nearly identical to either of those previous iterations. It starts out at stoich and at mid RPM mid throttle it starts to go richer. By redline WOT I am around 12:1 AFR.

So my idea of running right is running close enough to stock that you can't tell the difference using the right tools to monitor and prove it.

Now I can share plenty more details if people want to know them. I can post links to my build thread on MR2OC if anyone is interested. However all my personal experience is with the GZE ECU. This is why I have been asking for more specific information on peoples experience with the NA ECU and learn how they proved that it did not work.

instead of trying to get the other person to "prove you wrong"

Because when someone makes a claim I expect them to be able to back it up. I also think it's fishy when people evade direct questions. If you know something then you should be eager to claim why you are so confidant something is true.
I cannot prove an NA ECU can handle ITBs because I don't have direct experience with it. I do however have experience tuning a much drastically different motor ECU combination with a very similar era and design ECU.
I have also seen people run 8 PSI boost on NA ECUs without so much as a piggy back. I have asked many times in this thread how it's possible an ECU can compensate with very minimal tuning to .6 bar and 50% increase in volume but cannot compensate for the effects of ITBs?
Another question I have asked. What exactly didn't work? This should be a easy question to answer. Did the AFRs get weird? I have a very hard time believing that it messed timing up an uncontrollable amount. I could see something like maybe being able to run 12 deg timing needing to back it off to 10 because the VE is a little different. Yeah that may loose you a hair of potential power but not enough to trash the whole project.

If anyone has any specific questions for me I am more than happy to answer them. I would love it if someone answered mine in turn.

[mikeyee]

im kinda lost now.

from what im understanding, everyone else is pretty much saying it's useless to attempt to run ITBs on an AFM ecu. even if it might work, the gains would be minimal or might even be worse than the stock intake manifold setup? so it's a lost cause trying to attempt to do ITB setup as such, and just do proper standalone ECU with a motor build suitable for the trumpets.

and you (yoshimutspeed) are saying that it does work, and that you have done it yourself, and even running turbo?

[yoshimitsuspeed]

im kinda lost now.

from what im understanding, everyone else is pretty much saying it's useless to attempt to run ITBs on an AFM ecu. even if it might work, the gains would be minimal or might even be worse than the stock intake manifold setup? so it's a lost cause trying to attempt to do ITB setup as such, and just do proper standalone ECU with a motor build suitable for the trumpets.

ITBs are almost entirely a glam mod for almost all builds. If you took the ITBs off an FA motor or a Hyabusa and ran a properly sized TB with a well designed mani you might loose a little power in certain areas of the curve and you would loose a couple milliseconds throttle response. If you had the right manifold on there you might even gain power in other areas of the curve. The losses would not be huge. Putting ITBs on a 100 hp motor is not going to net you any notable gains. Even putting ITBs on a moderately tuned motor is not going to net you any gains that would justify the cost.
If you put high comp pistons, cams, ITBs and aftermarket engine management on a motor you would see serious gains but I believe that very little if any gain would be from the ITBs. If you took those ITBs off and put on a single TB and a mani with a similar diameter and length I am confidant the performance would be nearly identical.
ITBs are horrible for resonant induction and the more the throttle plate is closed the more they wreck the resonance. Even at WOT they break it up. The gains outweigh the losses on a performance car or sport bike but they are still there.

and you (yoshimutspeed) are saying that it does work, and that you have done it yourself, and even running turbo?

Yes I have and there are no signs that the VE is different enough that an AFM ECU should have any trouble running the setup.
Now my setup is not ITBs on a 16v motor and it is not on an NA ECU. There are too many variables to say how other systems will function, however if a 16V GZE ECU can run a 20V motor with three points higher compression, a completely different head and ITBs with it running as well or better than the original motor then I can't see how putting ITBs on an NA motor and ECU could cause any problem.
Beyond that after spending a lot of time studying intake and exhaust design and theory, fluid dynamics, and tuning I cannot think of any way ITBs could effect VE enough to throw off an AFM ECU.
Now this isn't to say every setup will work. For example an NA ECU may not run ITBs with super shorty stacks but it might run some long stacks just fine.
It is almost impossible to prove that something won't work. You can't test one or two setups and say ITBs won't work because it could be any number of variables that caused that not to work and changing any one of them could give you a system that works. The more monitoring equipment you have the more likely you will be to find those problems and fix them. I wouldn't do ITBs without a wideband. You may need to tweak the system and it will allow you to see what is wrong. Or if it seems to work it will confirm that AFRs are within normal parameters.

[ronny]

[chemtrails]

[redroku87]

You just completely aborted that car.
Don't ever touch another car again in the search of performance.

I don't even know what I am looking at, I don't care to know what I am looking at, it's a fucking disgrace to all things good and toyota.


No me gusta.

[mikeyee]

You just completely aborted that car.
Don't ever touch another car again in the search of performance.

I don't even know what I am looking at, I don't care to know what I am looking at, it's a fucking disgrace to all things good and toyota.


No me gusta.

[redroku87]

There is not a single person on this earth that doesn't have some hater in him/her.


and I just decided to dump the haterade cooler out all over this.... thing that was an AW11

[yoshimitsuspeed]

There is not a single person on this earth that doesn't have some hater in him/her.


and I just decided to dump the haterade cooler out all over this.... thing that was an AW11

Well then it's a good thing I don't really give two $#!!t$ what you think.
In fact I don't recall asking for anyones opinion on my car.
Whether you like my car or not, I find your posts befitting a grade schooler much too young to own a car of their own.
If you don't like it then fine, say as much. If you have some constructive criticism, questions or suggestions then post them.
If you just want to puke up insults over something that someone has obviously dumped a good bit of time money and energy into then know you would benefit the world much more by super gluing your fingers together.
I didn't build my car to win the respect or approval of any person or group. I didn't do it to try and fit in or be accepted.
I built my car the way I did because it made the most sense to me. There is a very specific reason everything has been done the way it has and the whole system has been optimized for performance and ease of access.
I can take off the intake mani, turbo and exhaust faster than most AW11 owners could have half the bolts off their intake mani.
One day my starter failed on my way to work. I swapped out starters and wasn't even late to work. How many AW11 owners would be able to say that?

I don't follow traditional schools of thought. My automotive heroes are people like Ed Roth and Collin Chapman. I call the AW11 the japanarat because it's the culmination of my love for Japanese cars combined with my design style which parallels much more closely the hot rodders and rat rodders. Quite possibly some small influence from other places such as Mad Max. Unfortunately this means that my car is not respected or appreciated by the vast majority of either culture. Import tuners just don't get the car because it's not all shiny with expensive aftermarket parts strapped on everywhere possible and classic car people and hot rodders automatically dismiss it because it's a Japanese compact sports car. It really is a good thing I didn't build it in hopes of any of their approval.
So as you can see you aren't the first to dislike my car and you won't be the last. I can however say that you did have about the douchiest response I have received so far so props for standing out I guess.

[chohdog]

Aside from the way your car looks, I think I figured out where the discrepancy is in your school of thought and others. You're running a manifold (obviously because its forced induction) to the throttle bodies. My write up, as well as most other people's school of thought for N/A applications is to run open throttles with no manifold. I think that since you're using the manifold you can still use the AFM and get a signal. Obviously when you run open throttles, there's no AFM to connect it to.