Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

[aceforever]

I think I probably need an oscilloscope to figure the distributor trigger sensor out.

Another idea is that 36-1 trigger wheel on the crank plus a sensor that I mentioned in my first post and possibly use the distributor for ignition. But that's like $50 for the T3 trigger wheel, $130 for the T3 crank pulley for another level of complexity. *shrugs*

I'm kind of stuck here.

Another idea I had was to use a 24+4 distributor assembly but there's no guarantees it would work and I can't use the VAST ignition module.

[jondee86]

If disconnecting the IGt from the igniter caused the rpm on the tacho to drop
by half, then it is reasonable to assume that the ECU was providing an IGt at
twice the required rate.

As I understand it, the filtering and gain controls provided by the E6X are
available for both the trigger and home signals, I think it is worth trying a
few more adjustments before casting around for other options. After having
a read of the manual, and looking at a few posts, I have made a checklist
of what appear to be the main settings concerning ignition...



There seems to be a certain amount of ambiguity about some of the settings,
so for these it would be worth checking both options to see what effect it has.
Hopefully, by putting this out in the open, we can get some input from some
of the old school tuners who may have worked with the EX6 back in the day

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Should the trigger be reluctor when I'm using the square wave from the VAST module? Or, are you suggesting to use the reluctor settings with VAST Ne signal to see if that would work?

[jondee86]

Should the trigger be reluctor when I'm using the square wave from the VAST
module? Or, are you suggesting to use the reluctor settings with VAST Ne signal
to see if that would work?

Good point... I completely forgot that we had decided to use the igniter output
as the trigger input. So you are quite right; the trigger input setting should be
Hall sensor. That is the first correction to the table !!

Second one is I see that I put Constant charge instead of Constant Duty

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

I think it's supposed to Constant Charge, because although the VAST ignition module is semi-smart, based on the megasquirt pages on VAST, they still specify dwell times, that leads me to believe when VAST uses IGt, it actually expects dwell. The megasquirt pages could be wrong though.

I'm also wondering if the trigger angle is correct, or at least if the distributor angle is correct. At TDC, the selector arm on the distributor is at the contact for cylinder one. The sensors also line up. So I think the trigger angle currently is set to 0-10 BTDC. Am I correct here? I'm not confident on my answer.

[jondee86]

Use whichever dwell setting has the least chance of causing problems...
and I would say constant duty is safer. The worst that can happen is that
dwell is too short, but that should not be a problem at idle.

AFAIK from reading the manual etc., the trigger angle must be higher than
the highest expected engine spark timing advance, plus some margin. Any
value between 50 and 70 deg should work. Then the timing lock is used,
and you adjust spark timing with your light until the actual timing and the
locked timing value coincide.

When using Hall sensor as the trigger input, you may need to turn the
trigger pullup ON ?? I have't checked the manual on that yet.

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

I've been playing with the home settings using reluctor and various gains 0-7 and various motronic filter settings. No luck.

I've tried experimenting with getting the trigger sensor hooked up to the home wires to the ECU and I don't get any data.

I've also tried experimenting with getting the trigger sensor directly connected to the trigger wire to the ECU instead of VAST IGN Ne signal, and I get don't get RPM with any of the gains and filter.

I'm starting to think the VR sensors reallllyyy don't play well with the Haltech ECU. Perhaps too low voltage?

[jondee86]

Does the ECU see anything if you hook the igniter IGt output up
to the home trigger input ? You will have to change the home input
to Hall sensor I guess ?

Tried changing to rising edge ?

Checked the gap between the home tooth and the VR sensor ?

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

You mean igniter Ne to home trigger input? I'll try that.

Also tried rising edge / falling edge (one of the first things I tried)

I did notice that the home tooth touched the VR sensor when cranking the engine by hand earlier and looking at the manual it states it shouldn't be touching. and there should be a gap.

[jondee86]

You mean igniter Ne to home trigger input? I'll try that.

Whatever signal you used that gave you a reading for the trigger rpm.
Since the trigger and home inputs are said to be similar, what works on
one should work on the other.... maybe

I did notice that the home tooth touched the VR sensor when cranking
the engine by hand earlier and looking at the manual it states it shouldn't be
touching. and there should be a gap.

Yes... a small gap... 0.2-0.4mm or 0.008-0.016inches.

I'll see if I can dig up that post about an amplifier for the VR signal.

Cheers... jondee86

[jondee86]

This is pulled from the response to a question on how to set up a Haltech
on a 6-cylinder 7M engine, so not directly applicable, but interesting....

Lets start from the beginning, you are using a 7M distributor, which has 3 reluctors
in it, Ne, G1 and G2, and you have a pair of MSD-8509 signal stabilizers, now, the
way to set this up is simple, configure both your main and home trigger inputs as
hall effect, using the input pull up option set to ON, using G1 as your Home trigger
and NE as the main trigger, set trigger edges to Falling, and then you need to find
Trigger Angle to 70 degrees and i guess we could start with tooth offset 5, but im
not sure if those values are wrong, they are just a starting point.

Do you have it set up this way? if you dont then you need to revise this.

Now, if you do, then its time to set the spark output, you have mentioned you had a
single ignition module for a single coil, these modules are set as Constant Charge,
with a charge (or dwell) time of about 3mS as base, normally with a Falling edge, is
this how you have it setup?

If you can get a signal out of the home trigger using the igniter as a signal
conditioner, then the solution to your problem could be as simple as finding a
second igniter, and setting both triggers up as Hall sensor type. This is what
the above post is saying, except they are using a proprietry signal stabilizers.

Alternative 2-channel Autronic solution...
http://www.weatherornot.co/interface_adaptor.html

MSD single-channel solution...
http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/m ... /overview/

Cheers... jondee86

[jondee86]

Another interesting read
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Hal ... pics/15382

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

That's a very interesting idea! Maybe the previous owner was planning to do that since I do have another one here in the misc box.

So I probably only need to hook up the IGN Switched ON +12V and connect the home signals to the ignitor, and NE output to ECU home. Is that right? how would I ground the ignitor? does the ignitor also get damaged if some of the other wires are not grounded?

What's the cons of having a distributor? I get the feeling that it's less reliable in the sense that the spark plug wires and high tension cables need to be replaced every so often?

Seem like the most common solution for this is 36-1 wheel to Haltech directly and:
1. COP in wasted spark or
2. two coil in wasted spark

Not sure exactly what the reasoning is, but it does seem like less moving part (no distributor) and less wires going everywhere.

P.S. I bought a set of feeler gauges for the car finally to check up on some of the spacing, seems like a useful tool to have

[jondee86]

This more or less covers the situation...



I assume that the Ne signal conditioner derives a power supply from the 12V
connection, so for the Home signal you would only need 12V, Home VR input,
and Ne output to ECU. The igniter grounds thru its outer casing, so it needs
to be bolted down to the chassis and grounded. The IGt, IGf and tacho wires
are not used, so just tape the ends.

The igniter that processes the main Trigger will receive the IGt to switch
the transistor and momentarily ground the coil to produce a spark. This one
will need 12V, a connection to the coil negative, trigger VR input, Ne output
to ECU, IGt input and tacho output wires all used.

I see it mentioned that the gap from the trigger wheel to the VR pickup can
be critical, so there is a chance to get the feeler gauges in action

Cheers... jondee86

[jondee86]

What's the cons of having a distributor? I get the feeling that it's less
reliable in the sense that the spark plug wires and high tension cables
need to be replaced every so often?

I'm not aware of any reason why plug wires would need to be replaced
more often than every 100,000 miles. And the distributor itself should
be good for the same providing it receives a minimal amount of attention.
The simple fact is that most people do not carry out any maintenance on
their engine or electrical system until there is a problem. And then the
first thing that is done is to simply replace parts in the hope that with
luck the problem will be resolved.

Keeping the plugs, plug wires, distributor cap and rotor clean is about
all the maintenance required. How often do you lift the hood and see these
parts coated in oil and dirt ? But I digress...

The nice thing about a distributor is that it provides sequential ignition.
It is also simple and reliable, and makes a convenient place to house the
cam and crank angle sensors. The downside is that there is a lot of
mechanical "slop" between the crankshaft and the distributor. This can
affect the accuracy of the spark timing. To overcome this issue, many
car manufacturers adopted wasted spark systems using a toothed wheel
on the crank. A cam angle sensor (CAS) was still required to tell the ECU
which coil to fire.

Coil on Plug (COP) systems are a packaging solution that is currently
fashionable. The ECU can fire the plugs sequentially, and there are no high
tension wires. However, cam and crank angle sensors are still required.

The truth is that a distributor and single coil will run your engine just fine.
Racing and high boost turbo engines are more difficult to ignite, and can
benefit from higher energy coil systems. Once you have your car driving
you can consider changing to a different system. I'm running wasted spark
on my car... just because I can... not because I need it

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Ah, interesting. So COP is more of a, hey look these things are cool! kind of thing for regular applications.

Since I'm not going to race the car and I'm not going to turbo the car. The distributors are probably fine for my application. It's only if I have an issue with getting the engine started that might prompt me to go wasted spark or COP, I hope it doesn't!

You're right. I rather focus on getting the engine started and tuned for now.

Just thinking about future planned work. There are clutch (leaky in the cabin), brake (one of the front wheels don't rotate easily), alignment (front wheels are on camber plates and steering rack is something custom? and is horribly aligned) to make the car drivable. Wheel nut (there's a wheel nut lock that the previous owner didn't have the key for). So after all that, maybe I'll switch over to another ignition method if I get bored

[aceforever]

So I connected up the Home sensor to the Igniter and Ne signal out to ECU Trigger, and the trigger diagnostics show that Trigger count goes up. I tried to hook up the Ne to ECU Home, but it doesn't count up. So the sensor is okay, but something's wrong elsewhere.

I've tested the wire harness from Green (trigger input) to Pin 13 on the ECU connector and there is continuity, so wiring is okay.

I think the issue is the ECU itself. Perhaps a setting on the ECU?

I've connected up the 2nd igniter and tested it with ECU Trigger and it seems to work. I connected their respective Ne wires from Igniters to ECU trigger and home wires, and it sometimes indicates Home count and sometimes not. Shouldn't it count up home at a number trigger / 4?

Anyways here are my settings:



Trigger diag window:


Maybe the signal for home isn't landing between a trigger signal? The haltech manual says:

[aceforever]

I've been thinking, if I set up the injectors to fire all at once instead of sequential, then I could get the engine running if the timing is correct even without home signal? I think maybe that's what I should do first even though that seems like it's like a "wasted fuel" instead of wasted spark configuration.

[jondee86]

It is not unusual for all four injectors to fire at once (batch firing). So long
as they only fire once every 180 deg of crankshaft rotation, it will work.

Yes, I would expect he trigger count to show 4X as many trigger counts as
home counts. Try changing the tooth offset to one. You can also try changing
the trigger edge to rising edge, as this seems to be a bit of a grey area.

Basically, if you can get a tooth count off the home trigger via the second
igniter, you are 90% of the way home Try adjusting the home sensor as
close as you can get it to the home trigger without actuallt touching when the
shaft is pushed towards the sensor (to guard against any looseness in the
distributor shaft bearings).

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Hey there! Just wanted to give a quick update. I tried some of the suggestions you had but they weren't working. I'm still waiting on the oscilloscope to continue further on the trigger diagnosis. It should be arriving in a couple days.

I ordered some Trueno decals and they seem pretty good!

[aceforever]

Bad news guys. I was testing the trigger sensor wires while the ignition was on and I accidentally connected the shielding from the signal wires for the ignition module to trigger sensor and shorted it out. The other electronics seem fine, however crank now, there is no signal from Ne from ignition module, and the OEM tacho doesn't indicate anything.

What should I do? I'm thinking I broke the ignition module and or the ignition coil.

The ignition module gets noticeably warm after cranking, is this common?

I'm so upset with myself ugh.

EDIT: I also remembered that I cranked without the cap plugged into the distributor. So that maybe what actually caused the short. Since the high tension wire wasn't connected to any thing

I tested ignition primary coil + and - and they give 1 ohms, secondary is 10 ohms (no k there). There must be a short between the inner and outer wires, since I've read that usually inner and outer coils should be 6k+.

EDIT2: 4age Manual says for AE cars the coil should say Primary 0.41 - 0.50 ohms, Secondary 10.2 - 13.8 k ohms. Definitely have a short there. I really hope the ignition module is okay.

[jondee86]

Sounds like you need to stop by the junkyard and see if there are any
80's Toyotas with the 4AGE engine. Just look for the round "beer can"
style coil with the igniter mounted piggyback on top... and grab one.
The same kind of igniter can be found on some of the late 80's early
90's larger Toyotas, usually mounted on the firewall. They have the later
design of coil, so if you grab the coil get the connection plug as well.

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Man, calling up these wreckers are painful. Either you're on the line forever or they answer right away and don't give a crap about you. If I were to buy the part new, local auto stores have it for around $30. Saves me the time of calling these people up. I'll try a few more wreckers though.

[jondee86]

Calling them up for small parts is not the way to makes friends with
the guy at the junkyard. You have to take a few tools and go to the
yard. Walk around until you see what you want, and take it off yourself.
Don't forget to take wire cutters if you need to collect plugs.

Best place to try usually has a name like Pick-N-Pull or Pick-A-Part, as
they often have a yard full of older type cars.

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Thanks for the tip. I found a place named Pick-N-Pull that I'm going this weekend! They have a few older Corollas, I hope they have the coil I'm looking for!

I also received the oscilloscope I ordered. Man, it's so confusing when you first start out. But after a couple hours of playing around with the configuration on the software, I finally figured out how to get the results I need! Woooo!


Look at that beautiful graph! Peak to peak is about 1.6V so around +.8V / -.8V on each. Line 1 is the Trigger sensor, Line 2 is the Home sensor.

The curves look different, so perhaps I hooked up + and - wires wrong on one of them.

[jondee86]

UAU !!!! Awesome result... you are well on your way to becoming the
tech expert on Haltech ECU's

The blue one is falling edge and the yellow one is rising edge. You should
be able to swap the wires to change one from falling to rising, or vice versa.

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Haha thanks! With some hard work and luck, I hope to be one.

Before I go to the junk yard, what should I look out for in the coil / ingitor? Would a non 4age coil and ignitor work?

[jondee86]

Coils can be square or round, and igniters come in many minor variations
on the theme. The coil and igniter can be mounted together, or located
separately in the engine compartment. The square coils usually have a nice
metal mounting bracket that you will want to take with the coil.

Look for 80's and early 90's Toyotas... MR2, Camry, Cressida, FWD Corollas
(AE82), RWD Corollas (GTS) etc. Just make sure you have some wire
cutters so you can get both halves of the plug plus a bit of wire for splicing.
Basically the coil and igniter don't care how many cylinders the engine has,
so you could take them from a 6-cylinder if that is all you can find.

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Interesting, so depending on the ignitor, I might not get the signal conditioning.

[jondee86]

Good point. Since you need an igniter that outputs a square wave Ne
signal, you need the VAST version. The interweb tells me that this was
used on Toyotas with these engines...

2S-E engine = FWD Camry and FWD Celica
22R-E engine = 4-Runners, Celica, Corona
22R-TE engine = turbo version
4Y-E engine = used in some Liteace and Hiace vans
4A-GE engine = look for 16V Corollas and the MR2

The clue will be that there will be two wires leading from the distributor
directly to the igniter. The engine version will either be labelled on the
engine or you can find it on the manufacturers ID plate on the firewall.

Cheers... jondee86