which engine has more potential for more power?

[oldeskewltoy]

kidsharingan - I apologize for not explaining further... jumping to conclusions.

The best advice I can offer at this point in time, is for you to look for a quality machine shop. A shop who KNOWS what they are doing.

Where do you live?

[kidsharingan]

kidsharingan - I apologize for not explaining further... jumping to conclusions.

The best advice I can offer at this point in time, is for you to look for a quality machine shop. A shop who KNOWS what they are doing.

Where do you live?

that's ok sir, each one of us is entitled to say their opinions ....

im from Philippines sir,

now that I know what engine is for my ae92 .. ill be posting my swap as soon as its done.. thanks to all

[Moto_Club4AG]

170-180 by the way, IS a BIG power gain for a 4A-GE and like many have assisted with details, it's not modest or easy to get from naturally aspirated state, nor is it cheap.

Also AE86 driving is about character, balance, and driver connection. And more purists will suggest a method of building a well packaged engine that's responsive, linear in torque, and utterly reliable than some boosted Frankenstein that's hard to drive or boasting huge blowers for no other reason than showing it in parking lots.

170-180 is plenty, as long as we know how to drive a well setup AE86!


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[Moto_Club4AG]

By the time all the custom upgrades and re-finishing, grinds, Polish, and such are done on a 16V it will even out or best a 20v (blackhead Kouki) by a tad, but the BEST part of using the 20V Kouki in straight factory form is that when you blow one up, it's easy and complete to put another one in, without custom-building stuff all over again.
It's important for a car that we actually race on tracks and need to prevent downtime.


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[burdickjp]

Also AE86 driving is about character, balance, and driver connection. And more purists will suggest a method of building a well packaged engine that's responsive, linear in torque, and utterly reliable

I'll second that one! There's a reason it has the reputation it does.

170-180 is plenty, as long as we know how to drive a well setup AE86!

This also implies knowing how to set up an AE86. That's the other part of the equation: keeping that balance.

[oldeskewltoy]

170-180 by the way, IS a BIG power gain for a 4A-GE and like many have assisted with details, it's not modest or easy to get from naturally aspirated state, nor is it cheap.

you need to remove your head from the FR-S, and get it back into the 4AGE...

a fair amount of development in recent years... proper build techniques, proper parts... good information testing, and reporting including over 170crank hp while retaining the stock TVIS management(mr2tailbreakers build over on mr2oc)... albeit with a few modifications. Depending on how much work you do yourself... 170hp can be done for under $5000.

[burdickjp]

You're poking the bear, Dan.

[Moto_Club4AG]

No that's what I mean though. Most people in AE86 domains don't consider $5000 to be economically feasible in most cases. Regardless of AE86 or FR-S, and outside of pro-Drifting, huge power requirements and expensive custom engines tend to keep people off track, lots of downtime, and to me that's the biggest expense of cars we love to drive most, downtime and garage time.


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[kidsharingan]

are there any good after market racing cams for 4age blacktop? if there is, has anybody here tried that? whats the output?

[yoshimitsuspeed]

No that's what I mean though. Most people in AE86 domains don't consider $5000 to be economically feasible in most cases. Regardless of AE86 or FR-S, and outside of pro-Drifting, huge power requirements and expensive custom engines tend to keep people off track, lots of downtime, and to me that's the biggest expense of cars we love to drive most, downtime and garage time.


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It really depends on what you are trying to do though.
On the C4AGE FB group seven out of ten people would suggest an SR20 swap or something like that as though the average car person can do that for a grand in a weekend.
That $5k includes ending up with a fully rebuilt engine with a couple grand in performance parts and a quality build.
This is especially useful if you are getting to the point where you need a rebuild anyway. Then you are looking at increasing your budget by 50% to increase your power output by 50%. In the car world those are not bad numbers.
It's also why I often highly recommend building your dream motor on the side while still being able to drive your car.
If you can get to the point where that motor is sitting on the stand looking all shiny and begging to be reved up chances are you will have the followthrough to swap them out and have it running in a couple weekends.
The most important thing is being realistic with your skills, your time and your budget.
My first 4A "build" started when I blew up the supercharger on my AW11. It was my DD so I ripped out the SC and converted it completely to NA in a weekend.
I then saved up parts and planned the build for about 6 months. When I had everything and was ready I pulled the car into the shop NA on a sat morning, worked straight through and pulled the car out making boost sun evening.
Being a welder, fabricator and mechanical designer definitely helped make that happen.

My next project was my Blacktop turbo and that took about 6-8 months of the car being parked. It did take time and their were risks. Had I gotten laid off mid way through like I did a couple years later the car would still be in pieces. I would still take that gamble in a second and am very happy I did.
I could have/should have built it on the side but since the motor in the car blew up that wasn't an option.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

are there any good after market racing cams for 4age blacktop? if there is, has anybody here tried that? whats the output?

I know you are new and I feel like everyone has been pretty patient and helpful asking each and every one of your questions that show you have done absolutely no research yourself and would rather just be spoon fed each and every answer but I gotta give you a bit of a hard time at this point man.

Long long ago some genius invented this thing called a search engine. People used to use this "engine" to learn things they didn't know the answers to.
It works like this.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=4age+20+valve+performance+cams

In the first three links you will find Kelford and Tomei. The poncam is made for both the 16v and 20v.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=4age+20+valve+cam+dyno

In the images the first one is a dyno comparing stock to poncams.


I have posted a couple links to my website in this thread.
There is also a link in my sig.
There are dozens of writeup pages with tons of info.
There is a whole section in the store devoted to 20v cams.
It's even right in the store navigation tab under 4AGE.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/store/20-valve-4age-cams
Some even have dynos.
I haven't gotten adding all the cams I can get but it's a start.


This has all been hashed to death ad nauseum.
Yes there is a lot of bad information out there so after doing lots of research you come back here, summarize what you have learned then ask educated and partially knowledgeable questions that people like me will be excited to help you with because it starts to get into the advanced side of tuning and tries to take the evolution to the next level.
If you rely on us holding your hand through all the grade school stuff by the time you get to the good stuff we will all be exhausted from answering over and over the same old questions.

[kidsharingan]

are there any good after market racing cams for 4age blacktop? if there is, has anybody here tried that? whats the output?

I know you are new and I feel like everyone has been pretty patient and helpful asking each and every one of your questions that show you have done absolutely no research yourself and would rather just be spoon fed each and every answer but I gotta give you a bit of a hard time at this point man.

Long long ago some genius invented this thing called a search engine. People used to use this "engine" to learn things they didn't know the answers to.
It works like this.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=4age+20+valve+performance+cams

In the first three links you will find Kelford and Tomei. The poncam is made for both the 16v and 20v.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=4age+20+valve+cam+dyno

In the images the first one is a dyno comparing stock to poncams.


I have posted a couple links to my website in this thread.
There is also a link in my sig.
There are dozens of writeup pages with tons of info.
There is a whole section in the store devoted to 20v cams.
It's even right in the store navigation tab under 4AGE.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/store/20-valve-4age-cams
Some even have dynos.
I haven't gotten adding all the cams I can get but it's a start.


This has all been hashed to death ad nauseum.
Yes there is a lot of bad information out there so after doing lots of research you come back here, summarize what you have learned then ask educated and partially knowledgeable questions that people like me will be excited to help you with because it starts to get into the advanced side of tuning and tries to take the evolution to the next level.
If you rely on us holding your hand through all the grade school stuff by the time you get to the good stuff we will all be exhausted from answering over and over the same old questions.

pardon me for my noob questions,

I understand what your talking about sir, yes I also do my research and been lurking to some sites about these engines, and there are tons of sites out there that tells this and that about upgrading the engines, but the reason that im asking these questions here is because id like to asked you guys personally and get an honest answer from you experts who have tried these things that im asking ... on the other sites, I only have the opportunity to read and cannot ask questions ... here I can have an answer to those questions and assurance that what you say is correct because I know that you guys have the experience with regards to what you are saying ...

thanks again ...

[Moto_Club4AG]

Not a problem, that's what we all keep this forums up and running for. Thanks to all those who pitched in accurate and passionate answers to all these questions with their own views.


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[burdickjp]

here I can have an answer to those questions and assurance that what you say is correct because I know that you guys have the experience with regards to what you are saying.

Don't EVER trust what someone says just because they say it. That is called an appeal to authority, and it is a logical fallacy.
As an example, I've met many engine builders or machinists who do any given thing wrong. When asked, they'll say, "I've been doing it this way for 20 years." You can do something wrong for 20 years. Time does not equal expertise.
If you want to trust something, you need evidence. If they can't show it, they don't know it.
Trust the evidence, not the person.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

pardon me for my noob questions,

I understand what your talking about sir, yes I also do my research and been lurking to some sites about these engines, and there are tons of sites out there that tells this and that about upgrading the engines, but the reason that im asking these questions here is because id like to asked you guys personally and get an honest answer from you experts who have tried these things that im asking ... on the other sites, I only have the opportunity to read and cannot ask questions ... here I can have an answer to those questions and assurance that what you say is correct because I know that you guys have the experience with regards to what you are saying ...

thanks again ...

Don't get me wrong, asking questions is great but you see how asking if there are cams for a motor makes it seem like you have done zero research yourself and want all the answers spoon fed yeah?
I'm definitely not trying to chase you off. These boards need as many contributing members as they can get these days. I'm just saying that it's a lot better if you were to do some of the legwork yourself. Then you can come here and say something like "I found these several cams online and this thread here discussion options and this old website telling me this. Due to this information I was wondering about these cams and wanted to see what you guys thought."
Or something like that. Just to show that you have put in some effort to gather the easy answers to the commonly asked questions and move on to asking more advanced questions.

Like burdickjp wrote there is no reason to believe any of us know any more or are any more right than what you will find on google or searching through old posts here. The only way to really know is to do enough research till you can start making your own judgment calls on what you read and what seems like someone who is full of crap and what is good info.

[kidsharingan]

Thanks for the link sir . I already saw it. So has any one here tried that racing cams from tomei and kelford? And what do you guys think about those claims that they have. So i guess that the tomei poncam 262 cam is the maximum cam that can be use with the stock ecu and stock valve springs? because on kelfords much higher duration cams they are also recomending some replacements for the springs.. thanks ... i might as well bought these cams and have them installed during the engine swap.

[burdickjp]

PonCams are very good cams. They put a lot of time into that profile, with engines on dynos. Most cams are based off some math, and simulations, and experience with similar engines. Tomei did testing and interating with an engine on a dyno. They're, hands down, the best money spent on a 4A and stay relevant with a lot of other modifications.

[oldeskewltoy]

PonCams are very good cams. They put a lot of time into that profile, with engines on dynos. Most cams are based off some math, and simulations, and experience with similar engines. Tomei did testing and interating with an engine on a dyno. They're, hands down, the best money spent on a 4A and stay relevant with a lot of other modifications.

Don't EVER trust what someone says just because they say it. That is called an appeal to authority, and it is a logical fallacy.


Trust the evidence, not the person.

So where is the evidence.... a dyno run on a smallport?

[burdickjp]

So where is the evidence.... a dyno run on a smallport?

It's prettied for marketing, but they have one on their website. It's more than you'll find for other cams:


If I remember correctly, the bottom line is a stock smallport, the second one up is that smallport with PonCams, and the third one is with more compression. Yes, it's cleaned up for marketing material.

Here's what they say about their development process:

During the Tomei 4AG project, the main focus was aimed at the development of the camshafts which over 10 prototypes were constructed. Through undergoing such criteria as our engine bench tests, actual road tests, and noise assessment, nothing has been compromised until the perfect product had been developed. The best camshafts for the 4AG has been created.

Assuming that they know what they are doing, you'd expect a lot of 10 iterations of profiles on a dyno.

In the scientific community there are two things to help with this. One is called full disclosure, The other is called peer review. You make your data available to your peers in as open of a manner as possible, so that they might compare to their experimentation and see how their results compare to yours. I try to be as open as I can with my development. An unfortunate thing about engine development is that much of it happens behind closed doors for a number of reasons. I'm sure you, Dan, know a lot about Loynings which you're discouraged from disclosing.
This kind of development, while veiwed as necessary for the sake of competition, is unfortunate for the community at large because it encourages appeals to authority. You get conversations like, "XYZ shop has built many of these engines, so they know what they're doing, and I trust their judgement". That's, in many ways, developing in a vacuum. You don't know that what they're doing might be better or worse than shop ABC, because there's little equal comparison between the two.

Having said all of that, I've seen 16v PonCams perform above and beyond what I'd expect from cams of similar specs. Even if they only performed just as well as similarly spec'd cams, their price makes them a bargain.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Yeah I sell probably 10 sets of poncams for any other one and have had many happy customers report back with them. One person with the 20v cams was on like their third set of cams and said these were the first that felt like they delivered what they advertised.

[oldeskewltoy]

They're, hands down, the best money spent on a 4A and stay relevant with a lot of other modifications.

I'm partially busting your chops... BUT... you and I both know the stock head stops breathing even before the stock cams are @ full lift... so the BEST money spent on a 4A could be easily argued for a correctly ported head.....

[burdickjp]

They're, hands down, the best money spent on a 4A and stay relevant with a lot of other modifications.

I'm partially busting your chops... BUT... you and I both know the stock head stops breathing even before the stock cams are @ full lift... so the BEST money spent on a 4A could be easily argued for a correctly ported head.....

Abstract: cams without porting is a better investment than porting without cams.

If you're building an engine, sure, money into a head can be well spent, depending on the cost. but being able to drop in cams and see improvement, and having GOOD cams to continue building around, and having cams which compliment your headwork, and are worthwhile to invest intake and exhaust tuning, makes them a great first investment.
Everything revolves around cams.

[kidsharingan]

I checked this link as posted on this thread.

http://www.matrixgarage.com/store/20-valve-4age-cams

im wondering why tomei only got 264/256 cams while kelford has different kinds of cams durations like 270 and 280 cams?
is tomei' limiting its cams to what the stock ECU and valves springs can handle?

[burdickjp]

I checked this link as posted on this thread.

http://www.matrixgarage.com/store/20-valve-4age-cams

im wondering why tomei only got 264/256 cams while kelford has different kinds of cams durations like 270 and 280 cams?
is tomei' limiting its cams to what the stock ECU and valves springs can handle?

For the 16v they also have what they call ProCams, which are bigger, badder, better cams.
The 20v is a rather recent development for them, but they've sold a bunch of them, so I'd expect more from them in the future for 20vs.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

I checked this link as posted on this thread.

http://www.matrixgarage.com/store/20-valve-4age-cams

im wondering why tomei only got 264/256 cams while kelford has different kinds of cams durations like 270 and 280 cams?
is tomei' limiting its cams to what the stock ECU and valves springs can handle?

Every company has to weigh the cost to gain numbers. The sad truth is that the 4AGE is a thing of the past. The fact that we have so much aftermarket is a miracle and I suspect the majority of that can only be attributed to the fact that the 4AGE took on Formula Atlantic after Cosworth and that it has had such a successful history in performance applications. By the numbers we are a microscopic fraction of the income for companies like Kelford and Tomei. We should be stoked just that they still support the platform at all.
Yes Tomei only has the poncam for the 20v but the reason why just comes down to money. Tomei used to make a sweet crank for the 4AGE. They Also made pistons for the 4AGE. In fact they dumped buckets of money into the development of both. Why aren't either available anymore? Because it was a bad investment. They came out around the time the 4AGE Was falling from oldschool badassedness to oldschool almost no one cares about it anymore.
There is still a small cult following but from a big business perspective there are much easier fish to fry.
Any time you ask yourself why are things so limited for the 4AGE look at the vast majority of motors from the same era and thank the heavens you fell into a motor that has the success, popularity and support that it does.

[burdickjp]

Tomeis 20v cams haven't been on the market for long, and demand has exceeded supply for most of that time.
Pistons and cranks, on the other hand, were never going to sell well in the US market. They're just too expensive compared to domestically produced counterparts. That's true for almost all Japanese manufactured pistons and cranks compared to those from American companies.

[oldeskewltoy]

not to mention the stuff made in China......

[kidsharingan]

guys, I know this is out of the topic, but do you have any soft copy or pdf copies of 4age manuals? if it is possible if you ever have can I have the copy of the manuals of all generations of 4age from the big port to the 20 valves, I just want to study them for future references ... if you can send it to my email address @ david.loren31@yahoo.com .... thanks guys

[oldeskewltoy]

guys, I know this is out of the topic, but do you have any soft copy or pdf copies of 4age manuals? if it is possible if you ever have can I have the copy of the manuals of all generations of 4age from the big port to the 20 valves, I just want to study them for future references ... if you can send it to my email address @ david.loren31@yahoo.com .... thanks guys

http://files.aeu86.org/manuals/4A-GEManual.pdf - largeports

http://locost7.info/mirror/4age_blacktop.php - blacktop 20V

[kidsharingan]

thanks a lot sir..