Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

demby123
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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby demby123 » Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:13 am

808AE86inAZ wrote:A word to the wise. If/when using the MSD Tach Adapter, do not mount it in the passenger compartment… the buzz it creates is annoying as all hell! Jus moved mine out to the eng conpartment today, SOOO much better!!!

I've gotten used to it but yea some days I want to move it out into the engine compartment...

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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby saiGone » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:27 am

Whats up fellow Carbed enthusiasts!

After reading this full thread come continue the discussion over at "Carbed Toyotas"


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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby Gregxster » Wed Aug 05, 2015 8:56 pm

IMG_3414 (640x480).jpg
IMG_3414 (640x480).jpg (255.37 KiB) Viewed 20691 times

What does an advance curve look like for these engines?
I have a mildly tuned big port 16v(10.8:1 cr; Poncams; 40mm Webers) running a MSD 6al-2 with a straight line from ~10deg BTDC at idle to max advance (~33) at 4000rpm. It runs great, but I am looking to optimize the curve. I am using the stock distributor and do not have vacuum advance.

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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby Gregxster » Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:09 pm

Okay, I just made some adjustments on the MSD. I initially had the dizzy locked out and a "retard curve" set at 25deg retard from 500-1500rpm then slope to 0degs retard at 4000rpm. It ran good but lost power at the upper end. I set the MSD to 0degs flat line and then set my idle timing to 10BTDC. As I was doing this I rev'ed the motor and noticed centrifugal advance! I verified that the MSD had the new zero retard curve. I thought these distributors where "locked" at ~37degs? I made a timing scale and added it to the timing marks on the engine. I set the max advance at 35degs while holding the revs at ~ 4000rpm. My idle timing is now about 5 BTDC!? It runs great and pulls much harder at all rpm and pulls to 7500 easily! ... with no run retard from the MSD!
Video... https://youtu.be/UATNY349BP4

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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby 77ra29gt » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:00 am

Good Morning, I am very new to the 4age world. I have a bigport and a t50 that I'm thinking about putting into my 77 celica ra29.

I have removed the intake and t vis as I will be running dcoe's.

so a few questions
Can the carb manifold be bolted on without the tvis plate or the t3 spacer i've seen?

what are these inserts in my engine head. my manifold will not butt up tightly as the holes are not large enough on the manifold to accept the inserts?


Image

Image

I've read that I can gut the t vis plate and use it as a spacer only?? That would give me a bit more runner lenth and the mating face of the t vis plat is properly bored to accept those inserts.

I've pretty much read this thread before asking and it seems no one else has had this issue??

Thanks in advance for your help and I'm enjoying reading all the knowledgeable input here.

Cheers
Neil

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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby 77ra29gt » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:26 am

Gregxster wrote:Okay, I just made some adjustments on the MSD. I initially had the dizzy locked out and a "retard curve" set at 25deg retard from 500-1500rpm then slope to 0degs retard at 4000rpm. It ran good but lost power at the upper end. I set the MSD to 0degs flat line and then set my idle timing to 10BTDC. As I was doing this I rev'ed the motor and noticed centrifugal advance! I verified that the MSD had the new zero retard curve. I thought these distributors where "locked" at ~37degs? I made a timing scale and added it to the timing marks on the engine. I set the max advance at 35degs while holding the revs at ~ 4000rpm. My idle timing is now about 5 BTDC!? It runs great and pulls much harder at all rpm and pulls to 7500 easily! ... with no run retard from the MSD!
Video... https://youtu.be/UATNY349BP4


I run the cheaper street-fire box by msd on my celica,

The 20r runs solely on mechanical/centrifugal advance. I use the box only for the multispark function a low revs to help burn the fuel more completely.

Good that you've all those revs now!

neil

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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby 77ra29gt » Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:16 am

77ra29gt wrote:Good Morning, I am very new to the 4age world. I have a bigport and a t50 that I'm thinking about putting into my 77 celica ra29.

I have removed the intake and t vis as I will be running dcoe's.

so a few questions
Can the carb manifold be bolted on without the tvis plate or the t3 spacer i've seen?

what are these inserts in my engine head. my manifold will not butt up tightly as the holes are not large enough on the manifold to accept the inserts?


Image

Image

I've read that I can gut the t vis plate and use it as a spacer only?? That would give me a bit more runner lenth and the mating face of the t vis plat is properly bored to accept those inserts.

I've pretty much read this thread before asking and it seems no one else has had this issue??

Thanks in advance for your help and I'm enjoying reading all the knowledgeable input here.

Cheers
Neil



ANYONE? Are these just guides and can I remove them to install the manifold?

Thanks
Neil

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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby El Gato Felix » Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:53 pm

You can remove those. They are just guides for aligning the t-vis. I'm not running no spacer(s) on my carb intake manifold, I just had to change to shorter bolts and studs because the stock bolts are too long and were designed to accommodate the t-vis and stock intake plenum.

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Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby PDB » Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:10 am

Thought I'd throw up a few pics of my 4age on R1 Mikuni carbs.

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https://vimeo.com/136498530


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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby 77ra29gt » Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:37 pm

El Gato Felix wrote:You can remove those. They are just guides for aligning the t-vis. I'm not running no spacer(s) on my carb intake manifold, I just had to change to shorter bolts and studs because the stock bolts are too long and were designed to accommodate the t-vis and stock intake plenum.


Thank you sir! Not sure if I'll remove them or not. The weber manifold is only about 2" depth so the t-vis plate will help keep some length to add to the total runner length.

Thanks for the response
Neil

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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby saiGone » Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:59 pm

Lost the tvis plate. It will only restrict flow.

Make sure your carb mani is for a large port. If it is not, then yes, you will need the T3 plate
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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby yukesrevolver » Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:00 am

Has anyone done the in-tank route? The listed pumps are obviously not GT-S oem (one is actually the OEM replacement for my friends '78 Corona). I'm just curious how it was mounted/held in place, and if a GT-S in-tank bracket was needed, or if you could use the SR-5 dummy bracket that comes with its tank?
85 GT-S Hatch (Bloody Panda)
87 SR-5 Coupe (white)

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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby saiGone » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:51 am

yukesrevolver wrote:Has anyone done the in-tank route? The listed pumps are obviously not GT-S oem (one is actually the OEM replacement for my friends '78 Corona). I'm just curious how it was mounted/held in place, and if a GT-S in-tank bracket was needed, or if you could use the SR-5 dummy bracket that comes with its tank?


My friend is bolting his external pump in the cargo pocket to the right of the spare. (kind of big pump)

If you have a long shaped pump, you can mount it fairly flush to the frame with a bracket.

You can use your sr5 bracket's straw, it will be a tad smaller than optimal but you should be fine. You can get fancy and fab up your own AN fittings

If you do end up w. a GTS bracket, you can just leave an old fuel pump on there and it will suck through it. or replace with hose
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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby demby123 » Thu Oct 01, 2015 6:39 pm

Just a little home made upgrade I made to fix the whole bike carb throttle size difference issue. I wish CAD parts weren't so damn expensive or i'd just get someone to CNC mill one, but this will do nicely. Just need to find smaller hardware to attatch the two throttle wheels...

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Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby SR85DET » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:27 am

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1444926286.239930.jpg

Can anyone please tell me a few things:
1) is the magnetic pickup being used the "4point wheel" as opposed the single point wheel in the distr.
2) which wires would they be? I am thinking in my distributor it is the red and white wire connector (female blades) that go to the red and brown wires inside the distributor. Other diagrams previously posted show green and grey or white wires together and red with black or grey. Kinda confusing for me
3) what wire is + and which is - for the pickup

Thanks!

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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby dr.occa » Wed Sep 13, 2023 6:04 am

SR85DET wrote:ImageUploadedByTapatalk1444926286.239930.jpg
Can anyone please tell me a few things:
1) is the magnetic pickup being used the "4point wheel" as opposed the single point wheel in the distr.
2) which wires would they be? I am thinking in my distributor it is the red and white wire connector (female blades) that go to the red and brown wires inside the distributor. Other diagrams previously posted show green and grey or white wires together and red with black or grey. Kinda confusing for me
3) what wire is + and which is - for the pickup

Thanks!

7 years and almost 11 months later: The "4point wheel" : red & white (female blades). :)

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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby Blof-fan » Sun Oct 13, 2024 7:44 am

Let me revive an old thread :roll:

Because I've got a question I can't really seem to get an answer to.

I've got an bigport 4A-GE from an earlier build that I want to repurpose for a carburated car. Since I kind of want that car to stay carbed, I'd like to do a carb conversion to that 4A-GE.

Now, I know that air velocity is a big deal with carbed cars and a smallport head would be the better option. But a bigport is the engine I've got and smallport heads are hard to find and getting pretty expensive.
I am thinking of going with a set of Weber DCOE's but I'm triying to decide if 40mm would sufice or that 45mm would be better for the largeport.

I tried some simple math to see if I could come up with an answer that way.
For that I looked at the cylinderhead port surface areas opposed to the carb port surface area for a single port and came up with the following:

Smallport port surface area: 1366,86mm2
Bigport port surface area: 1758,86mm2

40mm port surface area: 1256,64mm2
45mm port surface area: 1590,43mm2

Looking at those numbers, using a 40mm carb on a bigport head would slow the air down quite a bit from carb to head. Even a 45mm carb wouldn't really be a good match and would slow the air down.

40mm for a smallport would even be on the small side and looking at the numbers, a 45mm carb mated to a smallporthead might even be able to accelerate the air a bit.

I do understand that port size is just a part of this equation as there is still things like portflow etc. and 45mm carbs for a 1600cc engine does seem a bit overkill. Or am I really overthinking this? :roll: :lol:

I know people (have been) running both sizes on the 4A-GE bigports. So what are people's experiences with this? Are 45mm's better matched to the bigport than the 40mm's?
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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby jinx » Mon Oct 14, 2024 2:49 am

that 40 vs 45 math is the least of your worries. Tuning/dialing in 'basic' dual webers not cheap. Part$$$$$
Will perfotm like a dog, with crappy fuel and ignition timing curves. Then there is that 'horrible' noise to go with it
Not to mention they can guzzle fuel, untuned
If sold on carb route, I'd keep researching and probably copy a proven setup.... as a starting point
Bike carbs maybe a viable option, possibly with a fuel curve closer to a 4AG demand, vs an untuned weber
Look before you leap :D and good luck

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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby Blof-fan » Mon Oct 14, 2024 8:18 am

Well, to late for that I guess. I'm already pretty sold on the carb path :lol:
I already went over to the dark side when I bolted two 40mm sidedraft Solex ADDHE's to my 4A-F engine :D

Image

Image

Dailing these is wasn't that much of a hassle and yes, you will need 4 of every part when you start changing out nozzles and such and that can add up quickly. But the noise it makes! And it looks sexy as hell... :mrgreen:
This topic already contains some nice info on basic nozzle setups. So I recon I should be able to get it into the ballpark and finetune from there.

And there are heaps of 4A-GE's running webers out there, so isn't that a proven setup already? :lol:
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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby jondee86 » Mon Oct 14, 2024 1:31 pm

Sizing carbs or throttle bodies is mostly dependent on what you intend to use the engine
for, and what other mods have been made to the engine. Everything from 40's to 48's have
been used on the bigport head, in cars ranging from near stock to fully built racecars. If
you were happy with the 40mm Solex setup on your 4AFE and just want something that is
nice to drive on the street, stick with 40's.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby jinx » Mon Oct 14, 2024 1:52 pm

'typical' weber fits a wide range of displacements. You'd spend a chunk to get it 'dialed-in'.
That's coming from experienced old schoolers. Most 'enthusiasts' not going thru all that
Of 100 carbed 4AGE, do you think 3 of them better tuned than a healthy stock 4AGE ?
I don't, so all that 'proves' is.... those being a waste of time, effort and money(to me)

When I suggested "proven", I implied to research a dialed-in setup to copy. Not get carbs, 'just cause'.
Your previous 40s seem like they\d do the job for your 4AGE as well

Those solex look exactly like my Mikunis. Got the full 'tuning kit' & all. Countless hours seeking that sweet spot
On a stock motor, never found it. Still weak. Isky cams/springs save the day and transformed the car. Economy sucked.
I learned why, at the track everybody ran webers. A TON more time, part$$$ and expertise applied

Making that horrid noise in my slow street car, got old quick. Yeah, the sexy looks got me too. I was young

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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby Blof-fan » Tue Oct 15, 2024 9:03 am

jondee86 wrote:Sizing carbs or throttle bodies is mostly dependent on what you intend to use the engine
for, and what other mods have been made to the engine. Everything from 40's to 48's have
been used on the bigport head, in cars ranging from near stock to fully built racecars. If
you were happy with the 40mm Solex setup on your 4AFE and just want something that is
nice to drive on the street, stick with 40's.

Cheers... jondee86


Well, the 4A-GE engine was already build with very slight mods like 264 HKS cams, slightly higher compression from a 0,8mm TRD gasket etc, so not entirely stock anymore but noting wild either.

The 40's work well for the 4A-F. But the intake ports are maybe half the size of a bigport 4A-GE so there will be a noticable difference in air velocity there, and that's why I was wondering if 45's would be a better match.

But something nice to drive on the street is indeed the goal :mrgreen:
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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby Blof-fan » Tue Oct 15, 2024 1:31 pm

jinx wrote:'typical' weber fits a wide range of displacements. You'd spend a chunk to get it 'dialed-in'.
That's coming from experienced old schoolers. Most 'enthusiasts' not going thru all that
Of 100 carbed 4AGE, do you think 3 of them better tuned than a healthy stock 4AGE ?
I don't, so all that 'proves' is.... those being a waste of time, effort and money(to me)

When I suggested "proven", I implied to research a dialed-in setup to copy. Not get carbs, 'just cause'.
Your previous 40s seem like they\d do the job for your 4AGE as well

Those solex look exactly like my Mikunis. Got the full 'tuning kit' & all. Countless hours seeking that sweet spot
On a stock motor, never found it. Still weak. Isky cams/springs save the day and transformed the car. Economy sucked.
I learned why, at the track everybody ran webers. A TON more time, part$$$ and expertise applied

Making that horrid noise in my slow street car, got old quick. Yeah, the sexy looks got me too. I was young


'Of 100 carbed 4AGE, do you think 3 of them better tuned than a healthy stock 4AGE ?'

I certainly do hope so :roll: I still think that a properly setup and dailed in carb can match or even surpass a stock setup. The stock setup is still limited by the restrictions programmed into the ECU. The carb doesn't have that hinderance. You only have to find the right setup.
Granted, a fuel injection setup will have a wider operating window as it can adjust to different circumstances whereas a carb cannot without fidling with it.
And a carb will take a bit of effort to dail in, but when (not if) you find the right setup you can really enjoy it.

But still, I love the sound they make, the 'analog' old-school driving experience and how they look.
I don't really care about economy. This car isn't my daily driver but a car I can take out for a fun drive and take to meetings etc.

'Those solex look exactly like my Mikunis. Got the full 'tuning kit' & all. Countless hours seeking that sweet spot
On a stock motor, never found it. Still weak. Isky cams/springs save the day and transformed the car.
'

Mikuni license build some Solex carbs, so that might be where the resemblance comes from.
The 4A-F I installed them on is a stock engine and had nothing done to it other than a freshen up service, some cleaning, a painted valve cover and a custom vacuum system. I've dyno'd the car before and after the sidedraft conversion and it gained 18hp on an otherwise bone stock engine and had much nicer graphs. So no weak feeling engine here and haven't even had to mess around with jetting etc. The A/F ratio's were pretty much spot on with the setup I assembled it with after the rebuild. Probably sheer luck as I never messed with carbs before :lol:

So my experiences with carbs and setting them up has been pretty good thusfar. I know that isn't any guarantee for future setups, I'm still positive about it. :D

Maybe I'm just stuborn, but only time will tell I guess :lol:
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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby jondee86 » Tue Oct 15, 2024 10:41 pm

Blof-fan wrote:
jondee86 wrote:The 40's work well for the 4A-F. But the intake ports are maybe half the size of a bigport 4A-GE
so there will be a noticable difference in air velocity there, and that's why I was wondering if 45's
would be a better match.


I have never played with twin-choke carbs myself, so I'm no sort of expert. But I remember
riding with a friend who had a built 1600 Ford with 45's and he had to struggle to keep it idling
while waiting at the lights. Engines with cams generally don't have much vacuum at idle due
to reversion, and vacuum is needed to draw air in thru the carbs.

Carbs rely on airflow thru the venturi to create additional vacuum to suck fuel out of the jets,
and the choke size is adjusted to create the necessary vacuum. So when comparing 40's with
45's, you will end up making a choice between a 40 with a thin choke and a 45 with a thick choke.
Where (at what rpm) you want your engine to be most efficient is also a consideration. A 40DCOE
with a 30mm choke will outflow a 45DCOE with a 30mm choke up to around 160cfm per throat !!!
A 45mm carb has 26% greater cross section area at the throttle plate than a 40mm carb, so you
can expect the smaller carb to be more efficient at lower rpm, and promote slightly better
turbulence in the intake ports.

If you are planning to track the car (and my friend's car was his racecar) you could go for the
45's that will do their best work at high rpms. But for a lightly modded street car that usually
drives at lower rpm, it's likely you will get a better result with the 40's. For what it's worth,
when I put 42mm silvertop ITB's on my smallport with 270 deg cams, I actually incorporated
40mm tapered chokes into my bellmouths for improved bottom end performance. Of course
ITB's don't rely on venturi effect for fueling, so not a valid comparison.

Good luck... jondee86
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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby jinx » Thu Oct 17, 2024 4:16 pm

I've dyno'd the car before and after the sidedraft conversion and it gained 18hp

was the original 4AF oe carb 'before' ?
what was the final HP of the solex 4AF..... at wheel or crank ?
what used for ignition curve.... oe carb distributor ?

first mikunis I bought were 40s for a 3TC, then got the 44s
After all that tinkering, I doubt even 10HP gain, and those were touted as '2/3TC specific'
Felt a definite improvement in response/torque at midrange part throttle tho. That's expected with ITB

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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby Blof-fan » Fri Oct 18, 2024 9:22 am

The before dyno was the stock, untouched motor as from the factory with Aisin carb and about 140.000km's on the odometer.
It gave about 78hp at the wheels, which with a typical FWD powertrain loss of 15% translates into 89.7hp. Toyota reported 90hp at the cranck for the 4A-F when new. So I'd say it has a healty engine after all those years and miles :mrgreen:

Image

After the conversion, the car gave 93,5hp at the wheels.
With the 15% drivetrain loss, that translates into about 107,5hp at the cranck. So I was pretty pleased with the results :D

Image

As can been seen in the pictures, the OEM 4A-F ignition with vacuum advance was retained. Timing was checked and I did try to tweak it a little. But the factory setting still gave the best results.

So I guess if you really go for it, there is probably more on the table with this engine and carb combo

And the graphs of both runs:

Image
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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby jinx » Sun Oct 20, 2024 7:51 am

I figured that 4AF was oe carb. Decent gain still
Not gonna 'bolt on' dual carbs to a stock 112hp bluetop and make 130hp
woukd be interesting to see the TVIS torque curve vs carbs. Street car rarely see full throttle.

cool ride. Look sorta FX, but not boxy enough at back.... or mirrors, side skirts, front bumper

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Re: Carbureting the 4AGE essentials

Postby Blof-fan » Mon Oct 21, 2024 1:36 am

Thnx :mrgreen:

The FX you're reffering to is probably the AE82 which was a lot more boxy and with sharper lines.
This is an AE92 hatchback with a aftermarket bodykit. Still a work in progress though to get it back to a somewhat decent condition :roll:

When I eventually carb the 4A-GE, it will be tuned on the same dyno. So we'll see what I end up with :geek:
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