ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Tj.guanzon
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:13 am

ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby Tj.guanzon » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:52 am

Hello!

Anyone know if there's a shop that builds a harness for this conversion?

I've been kind of looking around, and haven't really found much on doing this, but I've been trying to adapt a set of ITB's from a 20v to my 16v engine. I have a Haltech Sprint 500 ECU, T3 adapter, and air pressure manifold. I'm also trying to use coilpack from the 1ZZ-FE motor. Everything is hooked up, but I can't even get the car to turn over. I suck at wiring, and I've been using various diagrams to put it together, but I haven't had any luck. A lot of what I see is "look it up and you'll find it." Unfortunately, this seems to be done more with the 20V than the 16V. I'm honestly getting to a point where I just want to get rid of the motor and throw a 1UZ in it, but I'm very much in love with the 4AGE engine.

The car's an 1986 Levin from Japan. I'm only fairly positive that it's a GT-V.

I'd appreciate the advice!
TJ

Disable adblock

This site is supported by ads and donations.
If you see this text you are blocking our ads.
Please consider a Donation to support the site.


User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2407
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby jondee86 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:48 pm

This is a very familiar story :) You are not the first one to discover that
installing an aftermarket ECU in an AE86 can become your worst nightmare !!!
I went down this road myself a few years ago (ITB's and ECU) and know the
feeling when you are at the "crank but no start" stage.

There is a lot of learning involved, and if you are not good with wiring diagrams
and the electrical working of the sensors and engines in general, then it just
makes the learning process a bit longer. If your ECU came with the 2.5 metre
flying leads, then it is not too difficult to make your own engine harness.

But you will need to be able to make a decent splice to connect the flying leads
to the engine sensors (TPS, WT, MAT, COP's etc). That means having a decent
wire stripper, crimping tool or soldering iron, heat shrink tubing etc and know
how to use them. If you are not confident in doing this work yourself, then you
will need to track down an auto electrician who can make the engine harness
for you. If you have a dyno tuning shop in your town they should be able to put
you onto someone who is familiar with the wiring required.

But as you say that you have got the install to the cranking stage (engine turns
over on the starter but no fire in the hole); how confident are you that you have
wired up the sensors and ECU inputs/outputs correctly ?

1. Have you tested all the wires end to end for continuity ?
2. Have you checked that you have 12V at the ECU with the key ON ?
3. Have you loaded a 4age basemap into the ECU ?
4. Have you tested to see if the ECU is getting readings from the sensors ?
5. Have you set the ECU for sequential (or wasted spark) ignition ?
6. Are the ignition outputs connected to the correct cylinders ?
7. Do you have an ISCV installed and connected ?
8. Are you planning to tune by TPS or by MAP ?
9. If tuning by MAP do you have the sensor hooked up and calibrated ?
10. Do you have the ECU fuel pump output enabled ?
11. Are the ECU grounds fastened down as per the installation instructions ?
21. Engine to chassis ground solid ?
13. COP's getting 12V with the key ON ?
14. All unecessary spigots, holes (vacuum leaks) in the manifold blocked off ?


It doesn't take much to stop an engine running. One wire is all it takes which
is why you have to check and double check to make sure everything is connected
up correctly so that the ECU gets the information it is looking for. Then the ECU
has to have the correct settings so that it can deliver the right amount of fuel
and spark at the correct time. Getting the correct crank timing signals (usually
from the distributor base or GZE CAS) is critical to getting the engine to fire.

So if all of this hasn't put you off cars for life, come back with some answers to
the above basic check list :)

Cheers... jondee96
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

UNLIMITED 86
Club4AG Enthusiast
Posts: 126
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:38 pm
Location: 619

Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby UNLIMITED 86 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:45 pm

I'm not a shop (yet) but I can make you a harness if you're really interested.

My Corolla is currently running an SDS standalone on a 16v HighComp with 20v ITBs. I made my harness to be 100% backwards compatible meaning, I can drop my stock engine and harness into my car without any extra work.

Where are you located?
IG: unltd_86

Parts for Sale: https://offerup.co/profile/ae86

WTB: OEM Windshield, hatchback 3rd brake light, and a clean Kouki Trueno Front bumper (also willing to trade mine + cash/???)

Tj.guanzon
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:13 am

Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby Tj.guanzon » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:07 pm

UNLIMITED 86 wrote:I'm not a shop (yet) but I can make you a harness if you're really interested.

My Corolla is currently running an SDS standalone on a 16v HighComp with 20v ITBs. I made my harness to be 100% backwards compatible meaning, I can drop my stock engine and harness into my car without any extra work.

Where are you located?


Sorry for the late reply! I live in Washington state near Seattle!

Disable adblock

This site is supported by ads and donations.
If you see this text you are blocking our ads.
Please consider a Donation to support the site.


Tj.guanzon
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:13 am

Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby Tj.guanzon » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:16 pm

jondee86 wrote:This is a very familiar story :) You are not the first one to discover that
installing an aftermarket ECU in an AE86 can become your worst nightmare !!!
I went down this road myself a few years ago (ITB's and ECU) and know the
feeling when you are at the "crank but no start" stage.

There is a lot of learning involved, and if you are not good with wiring diagrams
and the electrical working of the sensors and engines in general, then it just
makes the learning process a bit longer. If your ECU came with the 2.5 metre
flying leads, then it is not too difficult to make your own engine harness.

But you will need to be able to make a decent splice to connect the flying leads
to the engine sensors (TPS, WT, MAT, COP's etc). That means having a decent
wire stripper, crimping tool or soldering iron, heat shrink tubing etc and know
how to use them. If you are not confident in doing this work yourself, then you
will need to track down an auto electrician who can make the engine harness
for you. If you have a dyno tuning shop in your town they should be able to put
you onto someone who is familiar with the wiring required.

But as you say that you have got the install to the cranking stage (engine turns
over on the starter but no fire in the hole); how confident are you that you have
wired up the sensors and ECU inputs/outputs correctly ?

1. Have you tested all the wires end to end for continuity ?
2. Have you checked that you have 12V at the ECU with the key ON ?
3. Have you loaded a 4age basemap into the ECU ?
4. Have you tested to see if the ECU is getting readings from the sensors ?
5. Have you set the ECU for sequential (or wasted spark) ignition ?
6. Are the ignition outputs connected to the correct cylinders ?
7. Do you have an ISCV installed and connected ?
8. Are you planning to tune by TPS or by MAP ?
9. If tuning by MAP do you have the sensor hooked up and calibrated ?
10. Do you have the ECU fuel pump output enabled ?
11. Are the ECU grounds fastened down as per the installation instructions ?
21. Engine to chassis ground solid ?
13. COP's getting 12V with the key ON ?
14. All unecessary spigots, holes (vacuum leaks) in the manifold blocked off ?


It doesn't take much to stop an engine running. One wire is all it takes which
is why you have to check and double check to make sure everything is connected
up correctly so that the ECU gets the information it is looking for. Then the ECU
has to have the correct settings so that it can deliver the right amount of fuel
and spark at the correct time. Getting the correct crank timing signals (usually
from the distributor base or GZE CAS) is critical to getting the engine to fire.

So if all of this hasn't put you off cars for life, come back with some answers to
the above basic check list :)

Cheers... jondee96


I just pulled the harness out to take another look at the bay. I'll check it out tomorrow before work! I think I am going to need a MAP sensor as I could not find one, but I do have a plug for it on the Haltech loom. Also, I think I have the ignition triggers on incorrrectly. I've never been much of an electrician, so this is surely testing my knowledge on wiring as well as testing my patience lol

aukword1
Club4AG Expert
Posts: 467
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:03 pm

Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby aukword1 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:22 pm

With ITB's you wont get very stable MAP sensor readings. Most tuners will tune it based off of your throttle position. I am not familiar with Haltech ECU's or their software but most ECU software should have a testing section where you can test each ignition coil and have them spark. This way you can at least see if your coilpack wiring is correct and rule that out. Are you running a trigger wheel on the crank or trying to use the distributor as the trigger?

Tj.guanzon
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:13 am

Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby Tj.guanzon » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:44 pm

aukword1 wrote:With ITB's you wont get very stable MAP sensor readings. Most tuners will tune it based off of your throttle position. I am not familiar with Haltech ECU's or their software but most ECU software should have a testing section where you can test each ignition coil and have them spark. This way you can at least see if your coilpack wiring is correct and rule that out. Are you running a trigger wheel on the crank or trying to use the distributor as the trigger?

I'm trying to use the distributor as a trigger wheel. I don't know exactly what plugs I'm supposed to be using to be honest. I got as far as fuel injectors, speed sensor, grounds, 12v power, and ECU to coilpacks. From there, I'm fairly lost lol

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2407
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby jondee86 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:46 am

Tj.guanzon wrote:I'm trying to use the distributor as a trigger wheel.

Talking in general terms because I don't know which distributor you have, there
will be two trigger wheels inside the base. The one underneath will have more teeth
(4, 12 or 24) and the one on top will have less teeth (1 or 4). The one with the most
teeth will be the "Ne" (rpm) trigger and the one with the least teeth will be the "G+"
reset or crank position trigger.

I have read that your ECU will work with a one tooth reset trigger so as you have
mentioned, if you have a four tooth reset you can grind three of the teeth off. Make
sure that they are ground down more or less even with the surrounding shaft so that
there is no chance of the sensor picking up the stubs of the missing teeth.

Depending on which distributor you have, there will be three or four wires leaving
the base. One wire will be from the G+ sensor, one from the Ne sensor. Each sensor
ill also have a ground wire and these may be joined together at the distributor to
form a single sensor ground wire returning to the ECU.

Image

The cable from the distributor to the ECU will be shielded and the shield will be
grounded at the ECU end. In Haltech terminology it appears that the Ne signal is
referred to as the "trigger" signal and the G+ signal is the "Home" signal. There will
be more wires than you need so you can probably use a single 4-wire cable for both
of the sensors. If you only have a single ground wire just loop that and connect to
both of the negative (-) terminals on the ECU.

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

Tj.guanzon
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:13 am

Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby Tj.guanzon » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:49 pm

I'll pull my distributor tomorrow and see how it looks. I've been having a bit of trouble because my wiring doesnt seem to match the USDM wiring. Either that or I'm looking at the wrong diagrams. I honestly haven't been able to distinguish which 16v I have. I know I've ordered from part stores and gotten the wrong parts, then turned around and bought from Japan and that has never steered me wrong.

UNLIMITED 86
Club4AG Enthusiast
Posts: 126
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:38 pm
Location: 619

Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby UNLIMITED 86 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:09 am

Post pics of your distributor ;)

aukword1 wrote:With ITB's you wont get very stable MAP sensor readings. Most tuners will tune it based off of your throttle position.


Do yours run off MAP or TP?
IG: unltd_86

Parts for Sale: https://offerup.co/profile/ae86

WTB: OEM Windshield, hatchback 3rd brake light, and a clean Kouki Trueno Front bumper (also willing to trade mine + cash/???)

Tj.guanzon
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:13 am

Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby Tj.guanzon » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:39 am

UNLIMITED 86 wrote:Post pics of your distributor ;)

aukword1 wrote:With ITB's you wont get very stable MAP sensor readings. Most tuners will tune it based off of your throttle position.


Do yours run off MAP or TP?

images were too big to share them directly on this forum, but I've uploaded them to the website below.

https://ibb.co/Hxngr2m
https://ibb.co/hVrCCMF
https://ibb.co/7nJjwDL

From what I have read about using this ECU is that it uses MAP which is a sensor that I still need to buy.

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2407
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby jondee86 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:22 pm

This extract from the Haltech Platinum Sport Manual says that within the
list of Motronic triggering pattern included with the ECU software, there is one
for 24+1. I would expect that this can be used with your distributor once the
other three teeth are removed from the home trigger wheel.

Image

The manual is not very explicit about using TPS for fuel load, apart from saying
that it is possible. It also suggests (elsewhere) that the use of a MAP sensor is
optional. I would expect that it should be possible to select TPS as the load axis
in the software for bothe fuel and ignition. And if that is possible, the MAP
sensor will be used for pressure compensation.

Image

You really need to fire the software up on your computer and get familiar with
the available options.

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

aukword1
Club4AG Expert
Posts: 467
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:03 pm

Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby aukword1 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:34 am

UNLIMITED 86 wrote:Post pics of your distributor ;)

aukword1 wrote:With ITB's you wont get very stable MAP sensor readings. Most tuners will tune it based off of your throttle position.


Do yours run off MAP or TP?


TP but I do have a MAP sensor installed and a vacuum line from each TB to a vacuum block. Readings are still all over the place, thats how I know its not reliable. It might be better if you have an intake similar to the 20v on them but I'm just running velocity stacks.

Definitely looks like you are going to have to grind down those three teeth first.

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2407
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby jondee86 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:39 pm

Five years ago I was running my car with a 16V smallport, ST ITB's, 272 cams,
custom intake manifold and an aftermarket ECU. The engine was tuned on TPS
vs RPM for both fuel and ignition, but I had a MAP sensor connected as the ECU
factored manifold pressure into the equation when calculating fuel.

Here is a screenshot of a log when the car was being dyno'ed.

Image

This demonstrates a number of interesting points quite clearly, and may help
to dispel a few internet myths :)

1. The MAT (manifold inlet temperature) actually dropped by 1 degC during the
pull showing that open throttles don't kill power providing there is adequate
airflow thru the engine bay


2. Once the throttles are more than 50% open (results may vary) the MAP signal
has hit atmospheric pressure. If fuel is being controlled by the MAP signal alone
then your fuel is now maxxed out and you will need other forms of compensation
to keep the AFR safe.

3. During the course of the run (while the throttles were wide open) the MAP signal
dropped by 2kPa which is two fifths or five eighths of... not much :) From memory
this was with a filter plate and foam "sausage" filter installed, so no excuse for
sucking in dirt.

4. With correctly set up MAP sensor connections to each intake runner, averaged,
and damped, you can get a stable MAP signal that responds instantly to changes
in manifold pressure. However, this alone does not make MAP tuning for fuel
a good idea (don't ask me how I learned that :P)

5. The straight rpm line during the pull is due to the dyno using a constant ramp
rate, not the fact that the engine has constant torque !! Dynapak hub dyno eliminates
all the tire pressure/wheel spinning BS with inertia drum dyno's.

Cheers... jondee86

FFS if replying to this post don't quote the whole thing !!!!!
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

Disable adblock

This site is supported by ads and donations.
If you see this text you are blocking our ads.
Please consider a Donation to support the site.



Return to “TECH: 4A-GE ENGINE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests