ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Tj.guanzon
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ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby Tj.guanzon » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:52 am

Hello!

Anyone know if there's a shop that builds a harness for this conversion?

I've been kind of looking around, and haven't really found much on doing this, but I've been trying to adapt a set of ITB's from a 20v to my 16v engine. I have a Haltech Sprint 500 ECU, T3 adapter, and air pressure manifold. I'm also trying to use coilpack from the 1ZZ-FE motor. Everything is hooked up, but I can't even get the car to turn over. I suck at wiring, and I've been using various diagrams to put it together, but I haven't had any luck. A lot of what I see is "look it up and you'll find it." Unfortunately, this seems to be done more with the 20V than the 16V. I'm honestly getting to a point where I just want to get rid of the motor and throw a 1UZ in it, but I'm very much in love with the 4AGE engine.

The car's an 1986 Levin from Japan. I'm only fairly positive that it's a GT-V.

I'd appreciate the advice!
TJ

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Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby jondee86 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:48 pm

This is a very familiar story :) You are not the first one to discover that
installing an aftermarket ECU in an AE86 can become your worst nightmare !!!
I went down this road myself a few years ago (ITB's and ECU) and know the
feeling when you are at the "crank but no start" stage.

There is a lot of learning involved, and if you are not good with wiring diagrams
and the electrical working of the sensors and engines in general, then it just
makes the learning process a bit longer. If your ECU came with the 2.5 metre
flying leads, then it is not too difficult to make your own engine harness.

But you will need to be able to make a decent splice to connect the flying leads
to the engine sensors (TPS, WT, MAT, COP's etc). That means having a decent
wire stripper, crimping tool or soldering iron, heat shrink tubing etc and know
how to use them. If you are not confident in doing this work yourself, then you
will need to track down an auto electrician who can make the engine harness
for you. If you have a dyno tuning shop in your town they should be able to put
you onto someone who is familiar with the wiring required.

But as you say that you have got the install to the cranking stage (engine turns
over on the starter but no fire in the hole); how confident are you that you have
wired up the sensors and ECU inputs/outputs correctly ?

1. Have you tested all the wires end to end for continuity ?
2. Have you checked that you have 12V at the ECU with the key ON ?
3. Have you loaded a 4age basemap into the ECU ?
4. Have you tested to see if the ECU is getting readings from the sensors ?
5. Have you set the ECU for sequential (or wasted spark) ignition ?
6. Are the ignition outputs connected to the correct cylinders ?
7. Do you have an ISCV installed and connected ?
8. Are you planning to tune by TPS or by MAP ?
9. If tuning by MAP do you have the sensor hooked up and calibrated ?
10. Do you have the ECU fuel pump output enabled ?
11. Are the ECU grounds fastened down as per the installation instructions ?
21. Engine to chassis ground solid ?
13. COP's getting 12V with the key ON ?
14. All unecessary spigots, holes (vacuum leaks) in the manifold blocked off ?


It doesn't take much to stop an engine running. One wire is all it takes which
is why you have to check and double check to make sure everything is connected
up correctly so that the ECU gets the information it is looking for. Then the ECU
has to have the correct settings so that it can deliver the right amount of fuel
and spark at the correct time. Getting the correct crank timing signals (usually
from the distributor base or GZE CAS) is critical to getting the engine to fire.

So if all of this hasn't put you off cars for life, come back with some answers to
the above basic check list :)

Cheers... jondee96
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby UNLIMITED 86 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:45 pm

I'm not a shop (yet) but I can make you a harness if you're really interested.

My Corolla is currently running an SDS standalone on a 16v HighComp with 20v ITBs. I made my harness to be 100% backwards compatible meaning, I can drop my stock engine and harness into my car without any extra work.

Where are you located?
IG: unltd_86

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Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby Tj.guanzon » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:07 pm

UNLIMITED 86 wrote:I'm not a shop (yet) but I can make you a harness if you're really interested.

My Corolla is currently running an SDS standalone on a 16v HighComp with 20v ITBs. I made my harness to be 100% backwards compatible meaning, I can drop my stock engine and harness into my car without any extra work.

Where are you located?


Sorry for the late reply! I live in Washington state near Seattle!

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Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby Tj.guanzon » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:16 pm

jondee86 wrote:This is a very familiar story :) You are not the first one to discover that
installing an aftermarket ECU in an AE86 can become your worst nightmare !!!
I went down this road myself a few years ago (ITB's and ECU) and know the
feeling when you are at the "crank but no start" stage.

There is a lot of learning involved, and if you are not good with wiring diagrams
and the electrical working of the sensors and engines in general, then it just
makes the learning process a bit longer. If your ECU came with the 2.5 metre
flying leads, then it is not too difficult to make your own engine harness.

But you will need to be able to make a decent splice to connect the flying leads
to the engine sensors (TPS, WT, MAT, COP's etc). That means having a decent
wire stripper, crimping tool or soldering iron, heat shrink tubing etc and know
how to use them. If you are not confident in doing this work yourself, then you
will need to track down an auto electrician who can make the engine harness
for you. If you have a dyno tuning shop in your town they should be able to put
you onto someone who is familiar with the wiring required.

But as you say that you have got the install to the cranking stage (engine turns
over on the starter but no fire in the hole); how confident are you that you have
wired up the sensors and ECU inputs/outputs correctly ?

1. Have you tested all the wires end to end for continuity ?
2. Have you checked that you have 12V at the ECU with the key ON ?
3. Have you loaded a 4age basemap into the ECU ?
4. Have you tested to see if the ECU is getting readings from the sensors ?
5. Have you set the ECU for sequential (or wasted spark) ignition ?
6. Are the ignition outputs connected to the correct cylinders ?
7. Do you have an ISCV installed and connected ?
8. Are you planning to tune by TPS or by MAP ?
9. If tuning by MAP do you have the sensor hooked up and calibrated ?
10. Do you have the ECU fuel pump output enabled ?
11. Are the ECU grounds fastened down as per the installation instructions ?
21. Engine to chassis ground solid ?
13. COP's getting 12V with the key ON ?
14. All unecessary spigots, holes (vacuum leaks) in the manifold blocked off ?


It doesn't take much to stop an engine running. One wire is all it takes which
is why you have to check and double check to make sure everything is connected
up correctly so that the ECU gets the information it is looking for. Then the ECU
has to have the correct settings so that it can deliver the right amount of fuel
and spark at the correct time. Getting the correct crank timing signals (usually
from the distributor base or GZE CAS) is critical to getting the engine to fire.

So if all of this hasn't put you off cars for life, come back with some answers to
the above basic check list :)

Cheers... jondee96


I just pulled the harness out to take another look at the bay. I'll check it out tomorrow before work! I think I am going to need a MAP sensor as I could not find one, but I do have a plug for it on the Haltech loom. Also, I think I have the ignition triggers on incorrrectly. I've never been much of an electrician, so this is surely testing my knowledge on wiring as well as testing my patience lol

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Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby aukword1 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:22 pm

With ITB's you wont get very stable MAP sensor readings. Most tuners will tune it based off of your throttle position. I am not familiar with Haltech ECU's or their software but most ECU software should have a testing section where you can test each ignition coil and have them spark. This way you can at least see if your coilpack wiring is correct and rule that out. Are you running a trigger wheel on the crank or trying to use the distributor as the trigger?

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Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby Tj.guanzon » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:44 pm

aukword1 wrote:With ITB's you wont get very stable MAP sensor readings. Most tuners will tune it based off of your throttle position. I am not familiar with Haltech ECU's or their software but most ECU software should have a testing section where you can test each ignition coil and have them spark. This way you can at least see if your coilpack wiring is correct and rule that out. Are you running a trigger wheel on the crank or trying to use the distributor as the trigger?

I'm trying to use the distributor as a trigger wheel. I don't know exactly what plugs I'm supposed to be using to be honest. I got as far as fuel injectors, speed sensor, grounds, 12v power, and ECU to coilpacks. From there, I'm fairly lost lol

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Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby jondee86 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:46 am

Tj.guanzon wrote:I'm trying to use the distributor as a trigger wheel.

Talking in general terms because I don't know which distributor you have, there
will be two trigger wheels inside the base. The one underneath will have more teeth
(4, 12 or 24) and the one on top will have less teeth (1 or 4). The one with the most
teeth will be the "Ne" (rpm) trigger and the one with the least teeth will be the "G+"
reset or crank position trigger.

I have read that your ECU will work with a one tooth reset trigger so as you have
mentioned, if you have a four tooth reset you can grind three of the teeth off. Make
sure that they are ground down more or less even with the surrounding shaft so that
there is no chance of the sensor picking up the stubs of the missing teeth.

Depending on which distributor you have, there will be three or four wires leaving
the base. One wire will be from the G+ sensor, one from the Ne sensor. Each sensor
ill also have a ground wire and these may be joined together at the distributor to
form a single sensor ground wire returning to the ECU.

Image

The cable from the distributor to the ECU will be shielded and the shield will be
grounded at the ECU end. In Haltech terminology it appears that the Ne signal is
referred to as the "trigger" signal and the G+ signal is the "Home" signal. There will
be more wires than you need so you can probably use a single 4-wire cable for both
of the sensors. If you only have a single ground wire just loop that and connect to
both of the negative (-) terminals on the ECU.

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby Tj.guanzon » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:49 pm

I'll pull my distributor tomorrow and see how it looks. I've been having a bit of trouble because my wiring doesnt seem to match the USDM wiring. Either that or I'm looking at the wrong diagrams. I honestly haven't been able to distinguish which 16v I have. I know I've ordered from part stores and gotten the wrong parts, then turned around and bought from Japan and that has never steered me wrong.

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Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby UNLIMITED 86 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:09 am

Post pics of your distributor ;)

aukword1 wrote:With ITB's you wont get very stable MAP sensor readings. Most tuners will tune it based off of your throttle position.


Do yours run off MAP or TP?
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Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby Tj.guanzon » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:39 am

UNLIMITED 86 wrote:Post pics of your distributor ;)

aukword1 wrote:With ITB's you wont get very stable MAP sensor readings. Most tuners will tune it based off of your throttle position.


Do yours run off MAP or TP?

images were too big to share them directly on this forum, but I've uploaded them to the website below.

https://ibb.co/Hxngr2m
https://ibb.co/hVrCCMF
https://ibb.co/7nJjwDL

From what I have read about using this ECU is that it uses MAP which is a sensor that I still need to buy.

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Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby jondee86 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:22 pm

This extract from the Haltech Platinum Sport Manual says that within the
list of Motronic triggering pattern included with the ECU software, there is one
for 24+1. I would expect that this can be used with your distributor once the
other three teeth are removed from the home trigger wheel.

Image

The manual is not very explicit about using TPS for fuel load, apart from saying
that it is possible. It also suggests (elsewhere) that the use of a MAP sensor is
optional. I would expect that it should be possible to select TPS as the load axis
in the software for bothe fuel and ignition. And if that is possible, the MAP
sensor will be used for pressure compensation.

Image

You really need to fire the software up on your computer and get familiar with
the available options.

Cheers... jondee86
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persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
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Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby aukword1 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:34 am

UNLIMITED 86 wrote:Post pics of your distributor ;)

aukword1 wrote:With ITB's you wont get very stable MAP sensor readings. Most tuners will tune it based off of your throttle position.


Do yours run off MAP or TP?


TP but I do have a MAP sensor installed and a vacuum line from each TB to a vacuum block. Readings are still all over the place, thats how I know its not reliable. It might be better if you have an intake similar to the 20v on them but I'm just running velocity stacks.

Definitely looks like you are going to have to grind down those three teeth first.

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Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby jondee86 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:39 pm

Five years ago I was running my car with a 16V smallport, ST ITB's, 272 cams,
custom intake manifold and an aftermarket ECU. The engine was tuned on TPS
vs RPM for both fuel and ignition, but I had a MAP sensor connected as the ECU
factored manifold pressure into the equation when calculating fuel.

Here is a screenshot of a log when the car was being dyno'ed.

Image

This demonstrates a number of interesting points quite clearly, and may help
to dispel a few internet myths :)

1. The MAT (manifold inlet temperature) actually dropped by 1 degC during the
pull showing that open throttles don't kill power providing there is adequate
airflow thru the engine bay


2. Once the throttles are more than 50% open (results may vary) the MAP signal
has hit atmospheric pressure. If fuel is being controlled by the MAP signal alone
then your fuel is now maxxed out and you will need other forms of compensation
to keep the AFR safe.

3. During the course of the run (while the throttles were wide open) the MAP signal
dropped by 2kPa which is two fifths or five eighths of... not much :) From memory
this was with a filter plate and foam "sausage" filter installed, so no excuse for
sucking in dirt.

4. With correctly set up MAP sensor connections to each intake runner, averaged,
and damped, you can get a stable MAP signal that responds instantly to changes
in manifold pressure. However, this alone does not make MAP tuning for fuel
a good idea (don't ask me how I learned that :P)

5. The straight rpm line during the pull is due to the dyno using a constant ramp
rate, not the fact that the engine has constant torque !! Dynapak hub dyno eliminates
all the tire pressure/wheel spinning BS with inertia drum dyno's.

Cheers... jondee86

FFS if replying to this post don't quote the whole thing !!!!!
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Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby aukword1 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:42 am

That makes perfect sense, once you explain it like that.

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Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby Tj.guanzon » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:02 pm

So, I currently have a harness pulled(second times the charm) together with fuel injectors, coilpacks, distributor trigger, water temperature, and 12v power. I still need to buy a MAP sensor, and from what I'm reading here, should I not use the bleed air from each intake to go into a junction box to the air due to the fact that it will have an inaccurate pressure reading? I also need to figure out this TPS signal. I haven't quite figured out how to do any of this. I might try drawing a wire diagram on paper first and go from there. With that being the case, other than the aforementioned, what else would I need to get the car ready for a tune and back on the road? I'm honestly thinking of scrapping the harness and hiring a professional to put a new one together for me.

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Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby jondee86 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:17 am

Yusss... having a wiring diagram is a big help, and I have marked up a copy
of the Haltech wiring diagram to give you an idea of what you need. Here is a
link to the drawing... https://imgur.com/Prn2Vnu

I have marked the MAP sensor as optional. If your car is from Japan it would
have been MAP sensored, so there should be (or have been) a MAP sensor on
the firewall behind the engine. If that is still there, you can use that. If it is
not there, I think that you can put it aside for the moment and just work with
the TPS. The MAP sensor is not critical to a TPS tune.

So... did you buy the Haltech new and get the 2.6 meter Haltech harness ? Or
did you get it used with a harness that had been made for some other car ?

Was there a relay board that came with the Haltech ECU ?

I don't see any mention of an idle speed control valve on this diagram. You will
need one if you like the idea af an engine that idles kind of like a 20V :) There
are two "general purpose" outputs on the ECU that will control an ISCV so long
as they are capable of PWM control. I'll have another read of the manual...

Cheers... jondee86
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persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
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Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby Tj.guanzon » Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:34 am

I'll have to see about the MAP sensor this weekend. I think I know what you're talking about, and I'm hoping I didn't pull it off and throw it somewhere. I bought the ECU used, but the loom came with it uncut. Yeah! I haven't thought to link an ISCV to it. I really appreciate all the help! This has been a really frustrating project for the past couple years!

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Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby jondee86 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:50 pm

I think the best idea is to just work thru the wiring one input or output at a time.
For sure if you try and do five at once you will get a headache :) Concentrate on
getting each input or output completed and tested and marked "DONE" on your
wiring diagram. Once the wiring is all done, then you need to get into the software
on your laptop and make sure the settings are all correct for your setup.

Here is a bit of a wiring check list...
1. Injectors: Key switched 12V to each injector. This will usually come from the
ignition switch via the factory wiring. If using factory 16V injectors you might
need the resistor pack and that should already be in the factory wiring. The other
wire from each injector needs to be spliced to the Haltech wires in the correct
order (as per manual).
2. Coilpacks: Key switched power to each coil. Again this will usually come from the
factory wiring to the single coil and igniter. Ground wire from each coil. The
IGf wire is not used, and the IGt wire is connected to the Haltech ignition output
wire in the correct order (as per the manual).
3. Thottle Position Sensor: Three wires to be connected to the Haltech sensor
input and sensor ground wires. It is important to identify which wire is which. The
20V TPS rotates in the opposite direction to the 16V TPS and the TPS reading must
rise as the throttle opens (not go down). Use a multmeter to check.
4. Water Temperature: Straightforward.
5. Intake Ait Temperature: Straightforward, but not essential.
6. ECU Power Supplies: Straightforward.
7. ECU Grounds: Straightforward as per manual.
8. RPM and Home Triggers: You only need to use two wires for each trigger and
connect as per the Haltech diagram. You need to identify which of the factory
wires is the (+) and which is the (-) as the distributor base has reluctor sensors
and the ECU needs a "falling edge" signal. Grind three teeth off the small trigger
wheel (it does not matter which three).
9. MAP Sensor: Straightforward but not essential.
10. Idle Speed Control: Probably leave this until later as not essential to getting the
engine running. I will need to know what connections there are on the T3 adapter
and all of them will need to be blocked off unless they are actually connected to
something useful :)

When those are all connected and checked, you will need to get into the software
and tell the ECU what you have and how you want it to run.

Cheers... jondee86
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persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
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Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby jondee86 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:03 pm

So how the heck do you get a decent MAP signal out of ITB's ??

Image

In this pic I think that the builder used two small factory titties and tapped two
new ones into the #2 and #3 throttles. That looks like a ST that has been
converted to BT electronics. So quite a bit different to a 16V to ITB's conversion.

With a T3 adapter the usual place to take MAP samples is from a tapping into
the throat of each intake runner. Use the smallest rubber vacuum hose you can
get (I think I used 3mm) and the smallest hosetails to suit (I got some really
small ones from an industrial pneumatics supplier). Drill and tap and screw the
hosetails into the adapter plate bearing in mind that there will be some larger
hosetails to come for the ISCV and that you need to be able to get a socket to
the adapter plate fixing bolts.

The vacuum accummulator can be a piece of tube about 20mm diameter and
150mm long. Anything that you can drill and tap for the small hosetails will be
fine, and you need to be able to plug up the ends. This guy used irrigation
system fittings and it gives you an idea of what you need. The hose on one end
goes to the FPR and the hose on the other end is your MAP signal. DO NOT
connect any other hoses to this setup.

Fit a pulsation damper in the MAP sensor hose... you can find them on the MAP
sensor line in many junkyard cars... small round drum things with a tit on each
sode and a bit of foam inside. You can blow thru it either way, so don't confuse
it with a check valve that you can only blow thru one way.

That's your MAP sensor signal taken care of :)

Cheers... jondee86
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persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
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Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby jondee86 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:23 pm

What about getting the idle air into the engine ?

The setup is along the same lines as for the MAP sensor. This time use
8mm (5/16") hose tails tapped into the adapter plate and into whatever
accummulator you are using. As well as the four throttles you will connect
one larger hosetail (at least 1/2") that can be connected to the output
side of the ISCV. If you are using a 20V ISCV you will connect to the side
of the valve with the larger steel tube. Put a small filter on the other tube.

Image

There are other two-wire and three-wire ISCV's that can be used, but the
20V valve works fine if the ECU has two PWM outputs free.

There are vacuum outlets on the #1 and #4 ITB's for the brake booster.
Some people take the brake booster vacuum from the ISCV vacuum
accummulator and that seems to work OK. The ISCV system is where you
can use your Golden Eagle vacuum collector. Just make sure to keep the
MAP sensor and ISCV systems separate for the best results.

Cheers... jondee86
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persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
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Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby Tj.guanzon » Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:31 pm

OOOOH! So with the extra nipples I have on the accumulator, those will go to MAP and ISCV? Also, is that plug on the left of the ITB's going to the TPS?

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Re: ITB's, Coilpack, Haltech ECU installation for 16v

Postby jondee86 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:13 pm

OK... just in case you aren't fully confused yet, here is another pic...

Image

This is one of mine as I can't find anything really helpful on the internet. As you
can see I went the purist way and kept the MAP signal totally separate from the
brake booster and ISCV (hence the two vacuum rails). This meant that I had to
install two hosetails on each intake runner, one 8mm and one 3mm.

The reason for keeping the two systems separate is that the system for the MAP
sensor and the FPR is basically pressure sensing with no flow. The system for the
brake booster and ISCV flows air when the brakes are used or when the ISCV is
open (which is most of the time). Pressure fluctuations caused by the operation
of the brake and ISCV can degrade the MAP signal.

HOWEVER
There are a lot of people who have used a single vacuum collector and connected
everything to that. This works... perhaps not as good as keeping the two systems
separate, but good enough when you tune on TPS. So to keep things as simple as
possible, I suggest you use your golden eagle or whatever collector you already have.
You will need four medium hose tails (one for each intake runner), one for the MAP
signal and FPR (you can tee them off the same hose) and one large one to connect
to the ISCV.

If you don't have the factory booster connection hanging off the side of the #4 ITB
you will need to hook the booster up to the eagle as well. It will look a bit like this...

Image

Cheers... jondee86
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.

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