Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

[aceforever]

I think something else is wrong, I no longer see the clock when I turn the key to accessory, did I blow a fuse?

[aceforever]

Weird it's fine now

[aceforever]

Charge light isn't on when I switch to ignition on.

EDIT: I took apart the instrument cluster thinking it might be because the light burnt out, but it was fine. I managed to fix my right turn signal lamp while I was in there.

I've checked the CHARGE fuse and IGN fuse, and they're both fine. Looking at the wiring diagram, it looks like the charge light ends up at the alternator. Perhaps the 10A engine fuse is out. I'll go check that.

[aceforever]

Tried playing with the fuses, and checking voltage. 7.5 ign wasn't getting any voltage. Turned key to start without clutch and there's current. Charge lamp now functioning when ign on.

I think the ignition module was short circuiting. Leaving that disconnected. Also now know that ign fuse is tied to some relay system behind the dash even though It looks like a straight connection to ign switch on the electric diagram.

Bad news is I spent a day on something I shouldn't have had todo lol. On the bright side, my instrument cluster right turn signal lamp is now working. And my dash is cleaner

Heading to junkyard now for a new ignitor and coil. Wish me luck.

[aceforever]

First time at a junkyard, it's pretty awesome how many cars there are! It's also kind of sad, all these cars left here to rust.


Searched a good while. Found a few 4A-FE and others with coil built into the distributor. I didn't think those would work for my application so I kept on looking.

I cannot find any MR2s or any of the other cars you mentioned at the yard. Finally found some 2ZV-FE and 5S-FE with igniter and coil pack.

Searched on my phone for wiring diagrams for these and it seems like ESA ignition system that I can use with the Haltech if I could get the trigger wires connected directly to the ECU and get that registering. (I know we tried this before, but perhaps I wasn't using the correct settings).



The ignitor and coil off of an old v6 camry with 2ZV-FE had mounting bracket similar to the one on my ae86, so I opted for that. All and all, took a couple hours of searching and $16



It's worth a shot before I throw in the towel and go to EDIS.

[aceforever]

Found the wiring diagram for ignition:



It's nice knowing all the wiring colors are similar! The 2VZ-FE wiring is on the left, 3S-FE on the right.

[jondee86]

This was an interesting read...
http://forum.jbperf.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1089

... about these dual channel VR signal conditioner boards...



However, the Haltech claims to have signal conditioning built-in
with gain and filter adjustments, so I still believe you should be
able to feed the raw signals to the Haltech. The only verifiable
comment that I have come across is that it may be necessary to
set the sensor to reluctor airgap a bit closer than factory.

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

That's pretty awesome! I'll keep those in mind.

You're right that Haltech should be able to pick this up. I'm hoping I can get this working.

In all the diagrams it shows a noise filter, where is this on the AE86 usually?

[jondee86]

In all the diagrams it shows a noise filter, where is this on the AE86 usually?

Here is is... #38 beside the underhood fuse box...



On my car the filter has a metal fork attached and is secured under a bolt
that fixes to the inner guard. It's a small black block that connects to the end
of the engine harness with a short wire and blue clip.

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

I don't think I have that, will that be a problem? What's it look like? Maybe I missed it.

[jondee86]

I don't think I have that, will that be a problem? What's it look like? Maybe I missed it.

More or less like this...



It is just a condensor (capacitor) that passes AC noise to ground while
blocking DC. You need one to reduce the possibility of electrical noise
interfering with the VR signals. If you don't have one to should be able
to grab one similar to this from any old Toyota.

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Ah, let me see if it's in the misc bin.

[aceforever]

Damn, looks like the coil I bought is also shorted out. Primary to secondary coil is 50ohms.

Good thing I can return it within 30 days.

Also need that noise filter too. Any way I can test those? I should have brought my multimeter to the yard. Damn.

[aceforever]

Good news! I finally got the Haltech ECU to pick up the trigger sensors! Turns out after you make changes like gain or filter, you need to reset the ECU for it to take effect. The manual didn't say anything about that. What prompted me to try that is when I switched from Hall Effect to VR, it prompted me to reset the ECU. After many failed tries with changing the gain and filter without reseting didn't work. Then I had the idea of resetting and it worked! 188 RPM like before.

I got it picking up home trigger as well with the same settings on the trigger signal wires. RPM displayed 0, however trigger count was going up. I think home wasn't registering properly with home signal wires because of it being too close to the trigger event. I need to try to either move the home sensor forward more, or move the home gear forward more in rotation. The sensor is screwed on, so I'd need to make my own piece to move it forward, or if it's easier to move the gear forward I would do that.

[jondee86]

One small step for man...

Unless you swapped the home sensor onto the crank (rpm) sensor input
to the ECU, I don't think that you will get an rpm reading. There is no reason
why the home sensor would generate a rpm signal on the home inputs.

Just guessing that, as although I have seen some blah... blah... MS forums
about signals being too close together, I've never seen it mentioned in any
serious discussion. And Haltech does not mention moving sensors ?

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

I was swapping home and trigger just to see if haltech can pick it up. Haltech does pick up the counts but probably too few events for it to be able to count as RPM?

Anywho, I've advanced the home sensor about 10 degrees inside the distributor before 1st cylinder trigger event. Haltech still doesn't count up home counts Any further advance would require wiring modifications.

[jondee86]

If the ECU can reliably read the home sensor I would be reasonably
confident that it will work. That problem that crops up in MS discussions
also has an effect at high rpm's. Something to sort out at a later stage
if it should manifest itself while you are tuning your engine

I think you said you had a second igniter, so it seems all you need to
hunt down now is a working coil (almost any coil will do) and a noise filter.

EDIT: Just realised that you are saying both sensors work if connected to
crank sensor input, but neither work on the home sensor input ? Maybe
you need to try some different settings for the home sensor gain and
filter controls ?

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Unfortunately both igniters were hooked up at time of shorting and both don't show any sign of Ne signals anymore. I could try them again and hope something magical happens, probably both dead though.

ECU can read home sensor only when it's hooked up to the trigger wires, trigger count progresses. When home sensor is hooked up with home wires, I don't get anything. Home Count: 0

[jondee86]

If you put the trigger sensor onto the home input does it read anything ?

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Trigger wires disconnected, trigger sensor hooked up to home wires yields zero count on all.

Trigger wires now connected to home sensor, home wires connected to trigger sensor. Trigger count goes up, home still 0

[aceforever]

I tried using Multitooth setting.
Teeth 4, Offset 0-5.
RPM signals at offset 2-3, no home count. RPM at 0 for offset 0 and 5, guessing it shouldn't be 0 or 5

At this point I think either the home sensor isn't advanced far enough to match the "permissible window for home signal"

Or, the internal home RA adapter is malfunctioning.

Either way, I don't know where to go from here. I can get another igniter/coil to test that with all injectors firing to to get the car idling. You said it wasn't unusual for this type of fuel injection, what are the downside to not running sequential? Wouldn't the extra fuel collect at the port of the cylinder?

Or maybe another distributor, like the 24-4 distributor from the 3S-FE. Not sure it would fit though.

[aceforever]

Seems like from this megasquirt page, I should be using rising edge setting for the current wiring if using their VR circuit.



I need to figure out how the internal RA8 VR adapter processes the VR signal.

[aceforever]

Looks like Haltech's VR adapter works differently:



I should try the different combinations of rising and falling and gain settings. It's getting late here so I'll try this tomorrow.

It's weird that they show these scope graphs. How are they even getting these filtered/gained results with the ECU? I don't see any testing ports for me to hook up my scope to.

[jondee86]

Hmmm.... getting out past the edge of my understanding now

Various documentation makes it clear that the standard Toyota reluctor signal
is falling edge. If the ECU conditions that signal internally into a square wave
and decides that it now wants rising edge, then I would expect that to be taken
care of internally. That is, you still input a falling edge signal.

However, there is a enough confusion on the matter to make it worthwhile
trying every possibility, so try rising edge as well. Try some different gain
settings as well.

The voltage generated by the reluctor increases with speed, so there is some
possibility that cranking speed may not be generating sufficient voltage to
regisiter a count. This is where adjusting the airgap to the minimum possible
without actually touching, could be helpful. The fact that it is common practice
to shave three teeth of the 4-tooth home reluctor, tells me that a single tooth
home reluctor should work.

What we actually need is a way to test the home input to see if it really is
in working order. Given you recent experience, I am a bit reluctant to suggest
sticking 12V in there as a test. In theory "tapping" the input with 12V should
simulate a square wave, and each "tap" should register as a count. Maybe a
bit of research will reveal a suitable test method.

Most versions of the 4AGE 16V have batch injection from the factory. There
is very little performance gain from sequential injection, and unless the
injection is phased correctly, fuel will be injected onto a closed valve anyway.

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Thanks for helping me brainstorm so far! I really appreciate it. I think we need more information from Haltech to go further. I've contacted Haltech USA to see if they could help.

Doesn't the OEM ECU do batched in twos instead of all 4? I'm also wondering where the extra fuel go when stopped by the intake valve. Does get pulled into the cylinder on next intake cycle?

[jondee86]

The E6X is quite an old product, so there may not be a lot of support
available from Haltech. However, the method for testing a VR input
should be the same as on a later model ECU, so that would be helpful.
Given that the sensor is said to be capable of generating 50 volts or
more at high rpm's, I can't see that applying 12V to the input would be
a problem, but it would be nice to have that confirmed.

I am lead to believe that the AFM L-Jetronic EFI system does pulse
the injectors in pairs, but the MAP D-Jetronic EFI system pulses the
injectors all at once (batch firing). This is despite the fact that the
injectors are wired in pairs and have two input pins (#10 and #20)
on the factory ECU. Inspection of the ECU shows that the pins are
connected inside the ECU and there is only one transistor.

Batch firing was widely used on a range of Toyota and other vehicles
in the 80's and 90's, including all MAP sensored AE86 and AW11 cars.
It just works

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

I got in contact with someone from Haltech USA, they seem to still answer questions regarding E6X. I think I need to get him up to date with the current situation because he currently thinks it should just work.

I'll try the tapping 12V to test it at last resort. I don't want to short out the ECU like I did with the ignitor haha.

If Toyota isn't running pair batched, then why does it even need the home signal for the ECU? The spark is timed by the 4 tooth gear on VAST systems. I'm still wondering where the extra fuel goes though.

[jondee86]

According to Toyota...

VAST System
Because all engines which use this system have a simultaneous injection
pattern (except the 4A-GE), a G signal is not necessary. The four-toothed
pickup is designed to produce a pulse once every 180' of crankshaft rotation,
signal timing determined by the position of the distributor in the engine.
Distributor position determines Ne signal timing and, therefore, initial
timing reference. The 4A-GE engine with VAST, because it uses grouped
injection, utilizes a G sensor signal indicating camshaft position so the
ECU canproperly time each injector group.

... so it actually works because you would be reverting the 4AGE with
VAST back to the earlier D-Jetronic pattern of batch firing all cylinders.

The 4-tooth reluctor is geared to the crankshaft so each tooth will generate
a spark event at the correct timing. For a non-distributor engine this would
not work, as the ECU would then need a G signal to tell it which cylinder
was ready for firing.

Where does the fuel go ? It just goes into the combustion chamber and
does its job. At higher rpm's the injector open time increases and the
valve open time reduces. So it is inevitable that fuel will be injected onto
the back of a closed valve. Once the valve heats up the fuel will be vaporized
quickly and burned. At idle on a cold engine the fuel will condense and be
drawn into the combustion chamber as liquid. As liquid gasoline is more
difficult to burn that droplets or vapor, extra fuel is required at this time
to ensure combustion takes place.

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Thanks for the explanation! So when I see some cars that have liquid coming out of the exhaust, is that fuel?

I think I'm okay with going with all injector going at once now that I understand a bit more about it. In Haltech manual the setting is called "Multipoint". I'll switch that when I'm ready for start up.
In the manual it does say that with multipoint setting, it might be more sensitive to fuel pressure oscillations. I only have an aftermarket fuel u-bolt instead of the OEM one. I think the previous owner got rid of it for the ITB install. It's really hard to even get the aftermarket u-bolt in. I don't think the OEM one would even fit. Perhaps I can go with a different fuel rail down the line or mount at ITBs instead of before port. Does oscillations matter a lot?

A long fuel rail with narrow internal diameter will suffer from pulsation in the fuel rail. The
internal rail diameter should be around 12mm (½"). Even so, oscillations may occur,
particularly if the injectors are large. A fuel damper can help in removing these oscillations. If
running a multipoint set-up, batch fire injection will also reduce oscillation amplitude.
Oscillations may occur only within a certain rpm range, so a fuel pressure meter should be
monitored throughout the driving range of the engine.

---

The Haltech person said to start out with timing using a timing light to adjust the trigger angle to get the same value as fixed to get started. He also recommended me to get a newer Haltech ECU for better performance.

---

Also good news! Turns out my multimeter's ohms reading is off. It started showing negative ohms so I asked a friend to borrow his multimeter and it shows ~10k+ secondary to primary and 1.0 (since it can't go lower) on primary on both coils (the original and the recent junkyard one). I've ordered a new multimeter and it should be here on Thursday to test this further. I think it's just that I burnt out both of the igniters -- wasted a lot of money there huh? haha.

I'm going to proceed with wiring up the new igniter. Wish me luck!

I think this is might actually be good since I now have direct IGt access to fire off the coil without the extra VAST IC in between the igniter and ECU.

[jondee86]

So when I see some cars that have liquid coming out of the exhaust, is that fuel?

That will be water... condensation. Any uncombusted fuel should burn off in the
catalytic converter. When cars are idling in a queue of traffic on a cold morning,
there is not a lot of heat coming down the exhaust, and water vapor in the exhaust
gases condenses out inside the pipe and silencer. When the engine gets a few revs
on as it takes off from the lights, it will tend to push some of the condensation out
of the tailpipe.

I wouldn't worry about fuel rail pulsation until much later... if ever The factory
fuel rail is about 14mm diameter internally. And what the manual is referring to
is the fact that with batch injection all four injectors pulse simultaneously, leading
to a sudden drop in rail pressure. This is proportional to injector open time, injector
size and the flow capability of the pump. The effect will range from not noticable
at low rpm's to barely discernable at high rpm's with stock injectors.

It is good practice to put your multimeter on the Ohms setting and touch the
probes together before using it. This should result in a zero reading. I had a cheap
analog meter for many years, and the reading would drift with battery voltage. On
cold days it would read low, and I had to zero the pointer before use.

Cheers... jondee86