Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

[aceforever]

Haha, good one. Sorry for the slow updates. They're focusing on my car mainly during Saturdays, so hopefully to hear from them again this weekend. Here's the latest pictures I received last weekend.

Side markers are filled, body still needs some work. Doors and front fenders are in paint now.
Regarding my earlier comment about the yellow underneath the color paint. Looks like the whole car has yellow underneath, I'm guessing it's actually the primer instead.




EDIT: Just noticed, looks like my 86 has a Toyota cousin keeping it company.

[aceforever]

A local friend was selling these HKS camshafts and he says they're 264 and 256 degrees w/ 8.3mm lift. They seemed okay so I bought them. There's some scorching on the bearing spots? Not sure if they need to be machined or not. Any tips?





Not sure if the lobes are worn or not as well.



---

The extended TRD-like spoiler was taken off and now going to be remolded on. Below is the test fit.



Rear quarters ready to be primed after smoothing.

[jondee86]

Cams look good... a little bit of marking but they don't look like deep scratches
that you could feel with a fingernail ? The head does not have bearing shells like
the crankshaft, so machining the cam bearings is not really an option. Chances
are the head will have worn more as aluminum is softer.

You got two exhaust cams so now you can get to figuring out which one you are
going to put on the inlet side. Lots of opinions on that to sort thru

Cheers... jondee86

[Stock4AG]

I had seen HKS cams become that way not sure why stock cams don't.
I took a set to polish (not remove much to matter) and they look a lot better.

The 4AG head runs low on oil at higher RPM as it is, and if somehow it ran out of oil for it could be worse. fingernail or piece of paper catch? They have ways to fix it by spraying weld and turn them but it maybe too cost prohibitive.
Or you can install them as it is probably never tell a difference.

[aceforever]

I can feel my fingernail catch on a couple of the bearing areas. Is that bad?

[oldeskewltoy]

A local friend was selling these HKS camshafts and he says they're 264 and 256 degrees w/ 8.3mm lift. They seemed okay so I bought them. There's some scorching on the bearing spots? Not sure if they need to be machined or not. Any tips?





Not sure if the lobes are worn or not as well.

I recommend you have them checked carefully..... The bearing surfaces do look quite rough, a polish might be enough... but I can tell without them in my hands... but you did say you can catch a nail... that is enough to "dig into" aluminum.


Cams should be 8.35mm lift, that would mean measuring from the back of the lobe to the tip should get you 36.350mm, with a minimum of 36.000

[aceforever]

Just spent some time measuring all of the lobs.

I hope I'm measuring them right.


I'm getting anywhere from 36.35 to ~36.70, none of them are lower than 36.35mm

[jondee86]

Probably more to the point... OEM spec for the cam journals is 26.949 - 26.965 dia.
All used cams end up with a bit of marking from little bits of hard crud that get embedded
in the head. A few narrow scratches that you can only just feel will not be a problem on a
well used head. So long as most of the journal width is on spec, give the journals a good
rub with a green scotchbrite pad and whack them into your engine.

Check the valve clearances, re-shim as needed, and you are good to go

Cheers... jondee86

[allencr]

...friend was selling these HKS camshafts ...some scorching on the bearing...

Ask friend if it was running those useless ARP head studs that'll restrict oiling.
Polish up the journals and put a nicer radius on their oil ports instead of the sharp chamfer/edge/countersink they've got now.

[aceforever]

OEM spec for the cam journals is 26.949 - 26.965 dia.

There is one cam bearing with the most wear. The dia is 26.79. I measured most of the others that are 26.90, a couple were 26.94


If the journal is 26.949mm minimum, does a 0.159mm gap mean it'll be too tight? too loose?

Ask friend if it was running those useless ARP head studs that'll restrict oiling.

He bought them from someone else, so I don't think he even knows.

Polish up the journals and put a nicer radius on their oil ports instead of the sharp chamfer/edge/countersink they've got now.

It does seem like some of the scratches are along the same path as the oil ports. Would a machinist do something like that?

Thanks for the input and being patient with me.

[jondee86]

Try measuring that one small journal again with the flat part of the caliper jaws
as the sharp points might have found the bottom of a rut. If you can get it to
read 26.90 over most of the width measuring it that way, I'd put them in a worn
engine, but not in my best rebuild.

The difficulty arises in that because the cams run directly in the aluminum head,
the clearances can only really be measured by plastigauging with the cam installed
in the head. The FSM says replace when the max oil clearance reaches 0.10mm
and you would already be past that just from wear on the journal alone. So if the
most favourable measurement you can get is 26.79 I wouldn't install them.

Having said that, there are countless 4AGE engines that have run 250-300,000
miles without a rebuild before they finally expired. And I am sure that they would
still have been running happily with more than 0.10mm oil clearance. All the
bearings in a 4AGE are plain journal type and rely on a hydrodynamic film for
lubrication. Wear increases the clearances and reduces the system oil pressure,
but this does not mean lubrication failure.

I've got a set of used cams in the shed.. I'll go and take a look

Cheers... jondee86

[jondee86]

This is the last cam journal on the exhaust cam (closest to camera)...



These cams were in a screaming turbocharged Starlet before I got them, and
I just dropped them in and ran them in my engine. I had to find thicker shims
for them, so it is possible that they might be regrinds, but I don't know where
they came from originally.

Couldn't measure them accurately as I don't have a digital vernier at home, but
with a crappy plastic vernier all the journals measured around 27mm. Didn't
notice any significant difference in size. Sorry, can't help any further... maybe
your friend will give you a refund ?

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Thanks for the tips jondee86. I should have researched about the specs way more before buying, that's for sure. Really appreciate the help and advice here.

Got some more pictures from the shop:

Rear quarters



Molded spoiler hatch



Doors

[Nomnom83]

Can I ask what shop you took your car to get painted?

[aceforever]

Can I ask what shop you took your car to get painted?

Yeah sure, they're called ProCo AutoBody, http://www.procoautobody.com/

[oldeskewltoy]

A local friend was selling these HKS camshafts and he says they're 264 and 256 degrees w/ 8.3mm lift. They seemed okay so I bought them. There's some scorching on the bearing spots? Not sure if they need to be machined or not. Any tips?

I recommend you have them checked carefully..... The bearing surfaces do look quite rough, a polish might be enough... but I can tell without them in my hands... but you did say you can catch a nail... that is enough to "dig into" aluminum.

The 5th journal on the 256 cam is indeed beyond use in its current situation. I advised aceforever to check with Oregon cam (or other reputable cam grinder) on the cost to repair these. OR, to return them to the seller, and buy something a bit more modern.....

We also discussed some compression changes............

[aceforever]

Hey guys!

I've been waiting for a bigger update and some questions before posting, so here goes.

Paint:









Starter issue:
We let the car idle for 10+ minutes, and right when I was about to leave I stalled out the car. Then I couldn't start the car anymore. We didn't hear any clicks on the starter, but hear the Haltech relays click. We popped the hood and everything was toasty in the engine bay. The shop owner roll started it and the engine sputtered into life.

After driving a bit, I stalled it out once again (a bit rusty since it's been 2 months), but this time I was able to start the car again.

Coming back home, I was able to stop the engine, and start it just fine. Is my starter dying? Read some stuff here about heat soak that might or might not mean that your starter is dying, but not sure if it's misinformation or not:

http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=86804

Thanks!

[jondee86]

This here is about the most lucid explanation I have found for "Heat Soak" issues, and
cut-n-paste saves me a whole lot of typing

Heat soak is real but many people don't understand what it actually means. As already
posted, as the current's path heats, the resistance to flow is increased and requires
more power to compensate. That's what you saw when you jumped the car (with
another battery helping your own).

The purpose of the solenoid is to prevent power going to the starter unless there is
enough power to turn in. Without a solenoid, the starter might just hum and burn itself
up if there wasn't enough power to turn it. With heat soak, the problem isn't that the
solenoid is getting too hot to function, it's the heat of the starter, and also the cables
going to it that reduces the amount of current that the starter gets.

Often as not, it's a combination of problems that causes that click instead of turning
over. A battery may have just enough power to start a cool engine but not enough to
compensate for the increased resistance in the starter and/or cables when hot. Also,
the power a starter requires will increase with wear and, at some point, it's needs will
exceed the power available from the battery. Again, there might be enough battery to
crank it when cool but not when hot. Very often, a "heat soak" problem will we be solved
by replacing any one of several components.

A new and more powerfull battery may overcome the increased resistance of a worn
starter, poor electrical connections, or whatever the real problem is. A new starter
might reduce draw enough that a marginal battery will now start it just fine. In many
cases, guys have solved their problem by replacing a perfectly good starter or battery!
The "fix" was made by correcting a bad connection that they didn't know they had (and
still don't know) in the process.

Another issue is the battery and how it's normal for their power to gradually dimenish
over time. It's always obvious when a battery downright fails but many don't realize
that, even if something doesn't outright kill it, they do lose power over time. A 800 amp
battery only has 800 amps when it's new. A year later it might have 700 amps and so on.
It still takes way less than that to operate the starter so there's no problem until it's
power drops to a point below what it takes to operate the starter, or the draw of the
starter increases to beyond what the battery can deliver.

So if I may sum up your Honor, if your starter does not have a heat shield, or even if
it doe, but you have headers sitting right on top of the starter, you have a heat soak
problem. Ceramic coated headers, exhaust heat wrap or a reflective insulating wrap for
your starter should reduce/eliminate the problem.

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

That makes a lot of sense, I'll get some wrap for it! Thanks Jondee86!

Is there ever going to be a time to replace the starter? What are the symptoms that I should watch out for? Maybe I should keep a spare and tools in the trunk just in case I get stranded. I'm scared to be stranded in the mountains.

[jondee86]

Starters are generally very reliable items. But there are some things that can
cause problems... the brushes wear down and need replacing; the solenoid
contacts get burned and need cleaning; the engagement mechanism / sprag
clutch can get sticky and need cleaning/lubing. And of course, there is a remote
chance that there could be an electrical wiring fault.

For your peace of mind, you might want to get a re-manufactured starter to
replace the existing one. Either that, or leave the engine running when you
stop in the mountains and make sure you park on a downhill grade

Cheers... jondee86

[oldeskewltoy]

For your peace of mind, you might want to get a re-manufactured starter to
replace the existing one.

I did this when I built Surreptitious... I also opted for the 1.4KW AE82 unit 28100-15150-84. The AE86 4AGE starter is 1.0KW 28100-15130-84

[aceforever]

Thanks for the tips guys!

I'll replace them just so it's less one more thing to worry about. Looks like those are both of them are the same price on orielly's. Does the 1.4KW directly swap in oldsckewltoy?

[oldeskewltoy]

Thanks for the tips guys!

I'll replace them just so it's less one more thing to worry about. Looks like those are both of them are the same price on orielly's. Does the 1.4KW directly swap in oldsckewltoy?

It should.... it did in mine. Be careful about parts store parts, quality varies.... I actually spent the extra $$ and got a Toyota reman unit.

[aceforever]

Ah okay, I called toyota dealership about the ae86 4age unit, but they didn't have any. I'll try the 1.4kw one tomorrow when they're open again.

If not, the parts store part might be my only choice.

[jondee86]

Looking sharp now dude !!! Just like it was fresh off the showroom floor Did
you ever get to fit hood pins ? I'm trying to see them but can't pick them up on
any of your pics.

Cheers... jondee86

[Deuce Cam]

It looks like they did a good job on the 2 tone scheme, which is really nice since it's often botched one way or another.

[aceforever]

Looking sharp now dude !!! Just like it was fresh off the showroom floor Did
you ever get to fit hood pins ? I'm trying to see them but can't pick them up on
any of your pics.

Thanks a bunch! It's quite surreal actually seeing it in my garage. I've been so used to the rattle can look.

As for hood pins, I ended up not going through with them. I took the time to make sure the latch properly latches the hood in place. It took some sanding and trial and error to get it striking right. A project I have in the mind is to reinforce the fiberglass next to the metal striker with some metal rods clamping it in place.

It looks like they did a good job on the 2 tone scheme, which is really nice since it's often botched one way or another.

Thank you! I went in the day they were masking things off and showed them a bunch of pictures of what is OE and not botched job to make sure the painter knows. I'm very happy with the results!

Called the local Toyota dealership, looks like they don't carry:
1.4KW 28100-15150-84

Code: Select all

Market   Date range      Model            Frames/Options   Found in diagram
N. America   08/1987-05/1991   TOYOTA COROLLA      AE92         19-04: STARTER
N. America   09/1986-07/1988   TOYOTA COROLLA FX   AE82         19-04: STARTER
N. America   12/1984-11/1989   TOYOTA MR2         AW11      19-04: STARTER

1.0KW 28100-15130-84

Code: Select all

Market   Date range   Model   Frames/Options   Found in diagram
Japan   05/1983-03/1987   TOYOTA COROLLA LEVIN   AE8*   19-04: STARTER
Europe, General   05/1983-06/1987   TOYOTA COROLLA   AE86   19-04: STARTER
N. America   08/1983-06/1987   TOYOTA COROLLA   AE86   19-04: STARTER
Japan   05/1983-03/1987   TOYOTA SPRINTER TRUENO   AE8*   19-04: STARTER
Japan   06/1984-11/1989   TOYOTA MR2   AW1*   19-04: STARTER
Europe, General   11/1984-11/1989   TOYOTA MR2   AW11   19-04: STARTER
Japan   09/1981-03/1988   TOYOTA CARINA FR   TA6*,AA6*,SA60,RA63,KA67,CA6*   19-04: STARTER
Japan   07/1981-11/1985   TOYOTA CELICA   AA63,TA6*,SA60,RA63,GA61,MA6*   19-04: STARTER
Europe, General   08/1981-11/1985   TOYOTA CELICA   AA63,TA60,SA63,RA6*,MA61   19-04: STARTER
Japan   01/1982-03/1998   TOYOTA CORONA   TT14*,AT14*,ST140,RT141,YT140,CT14*,KT147   19-04: STARTER

But they do carry:
1.0KW 28100-15180-84, which they quoted me ~$140

Code: Select all

Market      Date range   Model   Frames/Options   Found in diagram
Japan      05/1983-03/1987   TOYOTA COROLLA         AE8*,CE80,EE80   19-04: STARTER
Japan      05/1987-04/1992   TOYOTA COROLLA         AE9*,CE9*,EE9*   19-04: STARTER
Europe, General   05/1983-06/1988   TOYOTA COROLLA         EE80,AE8*,CE80   19-04: STARTER
General      05/1987-07/1993   TOYOTA COROLLA         EE9*,AE9*,CE90   19-04: STARTER
Europe      05/1987-04/1992   TOYOTA COROLLA         EE9*,AE9*,CE90   19-04: STARTER
Japan      05/1983-03/1987   TOYOTA SPRINTER         AE8*,CE80,EE80   19-04: STARTER
Japan      05/1987-07/1991   TOYOTA SPRINTER         AE9*,CE9*,EE9*   19-04: STARTER
Japan      05/1987-05/1991   TOYOTA COROLLA LEVIN      AE9*   19-04: STARTER
General      05/1987-07/1993   TOYOTA COROLLA         EE90,AE92,CE90   19-04: STARTER
N. America   08/1987-05/1991   TOYOTA COROLLA         AE92   19-04: STARTER
Europe      05/1987-10/1992   TOYOTA COROLLA         EE90,AE92,CE90   19-04: STARTER
Japan      05/1987-05/1991   TOYOTA SPRINTER TRUENO   AE9*   19-04: STARTER
N. America   09/1986-07/1988   TOYOTA COROLLA FX      AE82   19-04: STARTER
Japan      05/1984-03/1988   TOYOTA CARINA FF         AT15*,160,ST150,162,CT150   19-04: STARTER
Japan      05/1988-10/1992   TOYOTA CARINA FF         AT17*,ST170,CT17*,ET176   19-04: STARTER
Japan      08/1985-07/1987   TOYOTA CELICA         AT160,ST16*   19-04: STARTER
General      08/1985-07/1987   TOYOTA CELICA         AT160,ST16*   19-04: STARTER
General      08/1987-07/1989   TOYOTA CELICA         AT160,ST16*   19-04: STARTER
Europe      08/1985-07/1987   TOYOTA CELICA         AT160,ST162   19-04: STARTER
Europe      08/1987-07/1989   TOYOTA CELICA         AT160,ST16*   19-04: STARTER
Japan      08/1985-07/1987   TOYOTA CORONA FF         AT160,ST16*   19-04: STARTER

I wonder if this would work on the 4age in RWD application.

EDIT: wait a minute, looks like it is possible, just saw this for 28100-15180-84

Japan 05/1983-03/1987 TOYOTA SPRINTER AE8*,CE80,EE80 19-04: STARTER
Model Dates: Matching Models: Model Options: Links to diagrams:
10/1984-03/1987 AE82-FEMQF GT, JPN, 4AGELU, MTM, 5F, 4D 19-04 19-04
10/1984-03/1987 AE82-FEPQF GT, JPN, 4AGELU, ATM, 4FC, 4D 19-04 19-04

Looks like it could work?

EDIT2: just went around the block to test out the starter, seems fine. But I didn't let it idle for a long time today.