failed emissions, help!

[Deuce Cam]

My GTS failed emissions . It's a stock 16v redtop bigport with all emissions equipment, runs good. The only engine mod is the trd 4-1 manifold/dp. I also have 4.77 gears which aren't helping the situation. Here's the test printout:



Any input is appreciated.

[Red]

I wouldn't think the gears matter unless they are putting you on a dyno "at" set speeds, and even then, not so much. Don't think the header would make a gross difference either.

What comes to mind is are you sure the EGR system is working? Have the O2 sensor and TPS been tested? Both are critical for mixture, both wear out. Then there's just plain tune-up, are you sure the timing, spark gap, everything is within spec? Catalytic converter how old?

[Deuce Cam]

It's a dyno test where they run a plotted line through the gears. The gears place the engine higher the rev range compared to stock at all times so it's not helping. I agree that the trd header probably isn't hurting anything.

No components have been tested yet. I've been having trouble with my iacv lately (1.5k warm idle), but the car was idling fine at 1k rpm at the time of the test. Engine runs good and revs free to red line. The cat is original as far as I know. I know it's possible to pass with the egr removed (mine is fully in place fwiw), so I'm thinking my problem lies elsewhere.

I have a spare original cat off my old gts sitting in the garage. I passed emissions with that cat on the old car, then drove home and swapped it out for a test pipe. It's been sitting a shelf since. I'll probably try swapping it before the next attempt.

[Red]

If the O2 sensor is more than 50,000 miles old, it may need replacement. Somewhere between 50-100k they usually are shot. SImilarly the TPS wears out of range about that often, and needs to be adjusted or replaced if it can't come back into range. I'd probaby check the timing and plugs first since they're easiest.

[Deuce Cam]

Thanks for the tips.

Keep 'em coming guys.

[BoRoYaSui]

have you done a oil change? This will reduce HC.
Put some extra tire pressure in. This will reduce the load on the engine.
Put on the new cat and make sure its hot when you do the test.

[Red]

The hot cat is a good idea, it does not function until it has heated up and running the car hard for 15 minutes before the emissions test may help ensure that cat is hot.

But the oil change? That's nonsense. An oil change can't affect emissions. Physically impossible, don't waste time on it. It can only affect the quality of any oil you are burning, and if you're burning oil you will have bigger problems like "gross polluter" and fail no matter what you tweak.

Tire pressure? Really? That's going to change emissions on a dyno run enough to make any difference? Come on.

[Deuce Cam]

I changed the oil roughly 2 months ago. I've maybe put 200 miles on it since. I'll up the tire pressure next time, it certainly won't hurt to try.

My old 16v gts burned more oil and smoked more under heavy load, and it passed (stock gears though). I still have the cat from that car which I plan on using next time, but it's not new.

I drove on the freeway and did a few wot pulls before pulling up to the test station so the cat was good and hot.

[oldeskewltoy]

The hot cat is a good idea, it does not function until it has heated up and running the car hard for 15 minutes before the emissions test may help ensure that cat is hot.

But the oil change? That's nonsense. An oil change can't affect emissions. Physically impossible, don't waste time on it. It can only affect the quality of any oil you are burning, and if you're burning oil you will have bigger problems like "gross polluter" and fail no matter what you tweak.

Tire pressure? Really? That's going to change emissions on a dyno run enough to make any difference? Come on.

Red... fresh oil doesn't have any fuel contaminants(burnable hydrocarbons) in it... so the oil doesn't give off any fuel vapors as it is being thrashed, and sprayed about. It isn't a lot... but a fresh oil change can lower some emissions readings....

Concerning tire pressure on a dyno and reading wrong... when I took Grunt to the dyno the first pulls were about 35% less then the final pulls... all because the tire pressures were 8 pounds down(20 instead of 28). whether that translates to emissions... that I don't know for sure

[ga_goosh]

you probably need a new cat. check your ignition timing and give your car a tune up will also help but it is probably that old 25 y/o cat under the car

[Deuce Cam]

I'm going to start by checking the ignition timing and likely retard it some since I seem to be running rich, and change the plugs since I have no idea how old they are. I'm also going to try the other cat I have.

I have signs of fuel seepage on some of the injectors where they meet the head, and at the banjo fitting and/or fuel damper where the feed line meets the rail. Before the next attempt I'm probably going to replace the injector seals and swap on my braided fuel feed line w/an fittings from my old car. I might test and adjust the tps sensor if necessary.

Side note: My car seems to have a jap import engine and I noticed I have green injectors (250CC?). Is that the same as usdm 16v ae86 injectors?

If I don't pass on the second attempt I'll probably look into a new cat. Does anybody have a good after market replacement cat recommendation?

[Red]

"Side note: My car seems to have a jap import engine"
I would try to check with a dealer part counter to find out just what engine you have. If the compression ratio is very different from the US model, who knows if a US ECU would ever make it burn to EPA standards? Once you know what the engine is, someone may be able to answer that.
Burning rich would point to the O2 and TPS, both of those will affect mixture.

In some states the entire car "is" whatever the engine is. In others, it is the VIN for the chassis instead. What's the rule in Az?

[Deuce Cam]

I'm pretty sure it's off the VIN.

I noticed the tech kept checking and rechecking the VIN on the door, then dash. Eventually I was asked if the car was fwd, then a supervisor got involved. "Are you sure it's rwd," they asked. At this point they're inspecting the car for a rear end and front cv's. "Ok we know it's not a fwd, but we're thinking it's awd, not rwd," she says....then, "we may have to do an idle test instead of load based test on the dyno." At this point I respond, "ok whatever." Eventually they ran it on the dyno. The car's a 1985 gts fwiw.

I had to do emissions once on my old 1986 gts (different car) and had no such issues. I actually still have the test sheet from the old car and just looked at it for comparison. The applicable standard year to year is different, '85 allows more emissions vs. '86.

I also have the emissions test results sheet on my current car from 2 years ago that the previous owner gave me. The applicable standard is the same as the test that I just took (and failed) so I'm assuming they used the correct test for my year/make/model.

[Red]

A 1985 GT-S and they couldn't figure out real fast it was RWD.<G>

"Well, Bubba, that there thing is the drive shaft, and there's just the only one of it"...Good lord, I'd better lay off the water and coffee and stick to the Scotch.

The '85 was a relatively low compression engine and from what I keep hearing, we got that because the higher-compression options couldn't meet EPA standards. if you can pin down more info on the new engine, maybe someone here has had experience with whether it CAN be approved at all. Or, is there any record that your car, with that engine, ever passed inspection before? I'm not suggesting it can't, just that it would be nice to know it CAN before digging into everything. Then there's a whole magical world of folks who claim they can add all sorts of things to your gasoline to get a cleaner burn. If you explore that, use it up and get it out of the car as soon as you can, just in case the plumbing doesn't like it.

Maybe retarding the timing, giving the mixture more time to burn, would help. Retarding to the point where it hurts.

And I'd check the ignition wires, if you're getting a weak spark some folks say that will make an incomplete burn. (I'm not so sure I believe that, since once the mixture ignites, it ignites, period.) New ignition wires have about a 5000 ohm resistance, 20,000 ohms are still ok, 50,000 means they should have been replaced ages ago. Gen-you-whine Toyota wires will have a year printed on them and can go 5+ years without any performance loss.

AWD GT-S, ROFL! Yes, the prototype Subaru GT-86, finally located in Arizona!<G> Which, by the way, may not be totally absurd. I'm told that Toyota was embarassed at having an inferior all wheel drive system and the deal with Subaru is going to give them access to Subaru's AWD system.

I was just tickled pink when my car turned 25 and the inspection rules changed to "Four wheels, two lights, one horn? Have a nice day!"

[Deuce Cam]

The car passed emissions back in 2011. The previous owner gave me the emissions test sheet. I bought the car last August and he told me it had a rebuilt engine. I'm assuming the engine was installed after the emissions test in 2011.

A couple of friends that know what they're doing helped me check a few things this evening. The spark plugs show a really lean condition.

Timing is WAY advanced. Baseline reading was at 50*+ without the test plug jumped, 45* with the test plug jumped . My buddy said either my dizzy was stabbed incorrectly and is off a tooth, or the rubber part of my crank pulley is failing causing it to slip. We retarded the timing to 32* with the test plug jumped and pretty much ran out of adjustment. All things considered he didn't recommend setting it lower anyway because he was worried the engine would be too lethargic and unresponsive to drive.

He thinks this should be enough to pass and is recommending that I attempt the test again with the test plug jumped so the ecu is locked out and the timing is fixed at 32*.

Edit: I doubt my car has higher than stock usdm compression. I've heard tales that a few redtop bigports were released with high compression pistons in other markets, but it's just a wives tale as far as I'm concerned.

On my last gts the 16v head was decked at least 3 times so the compression was higher than stock. I was even told, "this head can't take another head gasket job," and it passed emissions.

I used to have a '93 civic si with a jdm b18c intregra type r engine with 11:5:1 compression and it passed. I've also heard that properly running 20v's will pass the sniffer test.

[Red]

"...attempt the test again with the test plug jumped so..."
I'd bet they are not allowed to test it that way, but if you do it subtly, maybe they just won't check and won't notice it.

On compression, I have no idea which has what, just that our stick US-1985-bluetops are stock lower compression that several other engines, for sure.

Unless there's a time constraint, I think I'd look into those questions about timing being off (dizzy off, belt) and try to check everything before going back for another test at all.

[Deuce Cam]

It's not something I would recommend to someone else, but I trust their judgement. They're muscle car guys, and they've been using their tricks to get engines to pass for years. I haven't committed to anything yet though, I have time.

They won't see the jumped test connector. The check engine light is on since the car is in test mode, but they have no way to read the codes since it's not an OBDII car. I also read through the repair paperwork and there's nothing saying I can't do this, or saying that a non-OBDII car can qualify for an equipment failure for a check engine light. (I may just put a piece of tape over the cel anyway for piece of mind lol.)

Regardless the engine needs to be fixed properly and I plan on doing that. I'm just really hoping the timing issue isn't related to a broken woodruff key and/or crank timing gear. I also looked at replacement OEM crank pulley's, $300

[Red]

OBD2, how I love it. I had someone tell me to just plug my car in....One of these days I'm going to buy an OBD2 "head" and mount it unde there, connect it to something dumb like a PDA that just sends a rude message.<G>

[Deuce Cam]

I found out why I didn't pass. Swapped out the cat on the car for my spare and found this......



....uh oh....previous owner gutted that bish lol!

I can't believe I was that close to passing without a cat.

[Red]

So, the PO tampered with a federal emissions system. Which is a four-figure mandatory fine.

I'm a bastard, I'd call him up and tell him he owes me a catalytic converter and compensation for the extra emissions test run. And if he said no, I wouldn't threaten him, I'd just call the EPA and file charges.

Karma's a bitch, ain't it? <G>

[Deuce Cam]

I don't really care since I had a spare anyway. If that wasn't the case I'd be pissed.

The same thing happened to me before on an old car. I contacted the previous owner asking if he knew why the car was failing so bad. He responded, "yeah that car has a hollowed out cat."

[Red]

Well, all the elves want to help Santa hand out the good toys. I figure if the PO cheated me, set me up, knew he did something totally illegal and knew that I would get stuck with it? He deserves a big black lump of coal, and I'm quite happy to help Santa give those out too.

Every time someone pisses on my head and tells me "Its rain!" I lose a little more patience with this ****. Oh, wait, I stopped losing patience, its ALL GONE.

The guy didn't "accidentally" punch out the cat, and if you didn't know how to work on cars, and had to take it to a shop to get it fixed? Coulda been a fast thousand dollars out of your pocket. Some folks would have him kneecapped for that. I'll settle for his wallet. I'm easy.<G>

[Deuce Cam]

It's a lot easier to pass with a cat. Results from 2nd test:

[MisterJerk]

congrats man. im surprised it ran as clean as it was with a punched cat.

[Red]

Congrats, Deuce!
My lungs thank you.

So let me see now, if I run that VIN for past owners and drop a dime to the EPA...I can get the PO to contribute ten or twenty grand to paying off the federal budget deficit, right? <G> Or I could mail the dime to you, and you could get back the day of your time that you wasted on his nonsense, too. <G>

[Deuce Cam]

Haha be my guest if you took the info down. (That was a good reminder for me to remove the VIN/plate from the 1st pic.)