Black Top ITBS On 16 Valve 4AGE

[AE Harold.]

Wassup guys, I currently have a stock rebuilt 16 Valve 4age in my corolla. I want to covert it into a itbs but I'm having trouble knowing what I need to do this. Many people on forums say i can't run black top itbs (which I currently have) on a 16 valve but others say I can. Im not searching for big power gains I just want to run my black top itbs efficiently until i find another block a build it little by little. I want to know the things i need to do to run itbs on my corolla. I know i have to do a map conversion but how? and which ecu would work best with the itbs?

[jondee86]

Don't want to be the one to burst your bubble, but you are
heading for a world of pain, and at the end of it all... little
or no gain at all

BT ITB's are too big for anything less than a balls out race car,
and you will struggle to get them running properly without a
standalone ECU. Yes, there is an outside chance that you can
get them to run on some Frankenstein mix of stock components,
but they will run like arse, and you will wish you never changed
from your reliable stock AFM and single throttle setup.

Even when they are running properly, the ITB's alone don't give
any measurable gain other than more noise and a sharper
throttle response. You need to make other changes to the
engine to extract the real benefit from the better breathing
of the ITB's. Sure, it looks nice, but you don't drive around
with the hood open.

Cheers... jondee86

PS: How do I know this... been down that road

[gotzoom?]

This is especially true if you have a largeport head. ITBs need air velocity in order to make power and the large ports hurt you unless you have a lot more done to the engine. If you want more power, why not get a set of Poncams? They are a great mod to an otherwise stock 4age.

[AE Harold.]

Thank you for the information guys! I really appreciate it. Ive decided to build my motor. I just got a 7rib block and I'm going to aim for a 12.1 compression ratio. Was wondering if I should stay with a 16valve head or if a 20valve silver top head would fit good on the 16valve block. Will the 20v head fit? Do I have to banged out my firewall to make it fit like the blacktop swap or no? Thank you once again.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Thank you for the information guys! I really appreciate it. Ive decided to build my motor. I just got a 7rib block and I'm going to aim for a 12.1 compression ratio. Was wondering if I should stay with a 16valve head or if a 20valve silver top head would fit good on the 16valve block. Will the 20v head fit? Do I have to banged out my firewall to make it fit like the blacktop swap or no? Thank you once again.

Either are good options but you would want to get a full 20v longblock. Getting the head then piecing all the pieces to make it work will take more time and money in the end.
Yes you will need to address the firewall issue.

[AE Harold.]

Thank you for the information guys! I really appreciate it. Ive decided to build my motor. I just got a 7rib block and I'm going to aim for a 12.1 compression ratio. Was wondering if I should stay with a 16valve head or if a 20valve silver top head would fit good on the 16valve block. Will the 20v head fit? Do I have to banged out my firewall to make it fit like the blacktop swap or no? Thank you once again.

Either are good options but you would want to get a full 20v longblock. Getting the head then piecing all the pieces to make it work will take more time and money in the end.
Yes you will need to address the firewall issue.

Okay. So now that I know that 20v is out of the picture. Which head will be the best? Blue Top 16v head or Red Top 16v head? I have black top ITBs and want to know which head will be the best.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Thank you for the information guys! I really appreciate it. Ive decided to build my motor. I just got a 7rib block and I'm going to aim for a 12.1 compression ratio. Was wondering if I should stay with a 16valve head or if a 20valve silver top head would fit good on the 16valve block. Will the 20v head fit? Do I have to banged out my firewall to make it fit like the blacktop swap or no? Thank you once again.

Either are good options but you would want to get a full 20v longblock. Getting the head then piecing all the pieces to make it work will take more time and money in the end.
Yes you will need to address the firewall issue.

Okay. So now that I know that 20v is out of the picture. Which head will be the best? Blue Top 16v head or Red Top 16v head? I have black top ITBs and want to know which head will be the best.

You keep mentioning the ITBs but haven't told us your budget, your power goals, your RPM goals, porting, valve springs, bottom end, compression etc.
The smallport will generally be better especially with the right headwork.

[AE Harold.]

Either are good options but you would want to get a full 20v longblock. Getting the head then piecing all the pieces to make it work will take more time and money in the end.
Yes you will need to address the firewall issue.[/quote]

Okay. So now that I know that 20v is out of the picture. Which head will be the best? Blue Top 16v head or Red Top 16v head? I have black top ITBs and want to know which head will be the best.[/quote]

You keep mentioning the ITBs but haven't told us your budget, your power goals, your RPM goals, porting, valve springs, bottom end, compression etc.
The smallport will generally be better especially with the right headwork.[/quote]

Im not worried on how much I spend on motor work or parts. Im looking to get close to 180-200hp to the wheels with a compression ratio of 12:1. Im going to be measuring up the cylinders and block to see what size pistons and rods I can use to reach a 12:1 compression. Also see if ill need to bore the cylinders a bit. Im sending my crank to be rebalanced and rebuilt. Im going to put ARP studs on the block. I want to know which head will be best for the blacktop itbs I have. I will be putting cams and stronger valve springs in.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Im not worried on how much I spend on motor work or parts. Im looking to get close to 180-200hp to the wheels with a compression ratio of 12:1. Im going to be measuring up the cylinders and block to see what size pistons and rods I can use to reach a 12:1 compression. Also see if ill need to bore the cylinders a bit. Im sending my crank to be rebalanced and rebuilt. Im going to put ARP studs on the block. I want to know which head will be best for the blacktop itbs I have. I will be putting cams and stronger valve springs in.

Get a smallport head and send it to oldskewltoy for port, polish and valve work.
Next decide on cams and whether or not you are going oversized valves. At that power level it would be advisable.

After that I could design you a custom piston specifically to your build.

This is a piston I designed for a customer running poncams and stock valves. It keeps it non interference at about 11:1.



This is the rough draft topography I designed for a customer doing a high comp E85 build at about 14:1. I left the skirt design to CP and don't have a pic of that yet. They are designed for minimum safe valve relief for the Tomei procam 296.


You don't want to bother with trying to see if you bores are in spec and worrying about if you inspected them well enough. Step up to an 81.5 or 82mm piston.

I can get cams from Toda, HKS, Tomei, and a number of others. If you went with Tomei 288 or 296 I would give you a deal on pistons since I could use the above design with only small changes to suit your build.
If you make a large order through me I can save you more than you would by shopping around.

Now for the bottom end. Do you plan on keeping it stock and staying under 9000 RPM or do you plan on getting the block reinforced and upgrading your crank and rods so you can spin it faster?

You might be able to get 180 WHP without but it will be pushing it. More than that and you will be going for the full Formula Atlantic or ST3 type of build.

Or you could just buy the built motor.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/?q=products ... ete-engine



Then you need to consider engine management.
You know what you are going to do for that?

[oldeskewltoy]

200whp, its going to need O/S valves!

No offense to OP... but why must it have blacktop ITBs ... It'll be far easier to do this with a set of TRD throttles, or barrel throttles

[yoshimitsuspeed]

200whp, its going to need O/S valves!

No offense to OP... but why must it have blacktop ITBs ... It'll be far easier to do this with a set of TRD throttles, or barrel throttles

MUST HAVE BT ITBs

[AE Harold.]

Okay. So a small port head will be best with itbs. Im confused on which head is a small port. Is a blue top head a small or or a red top head? I will be putting after market cams and will be doing a port and polish on it.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Dude if you want any more help from me you need to stop focusing on ITBs. This is one of the least consequential parts of your build. Not to say induction isn't important but you need to start talking about your build as a whole and if you want the kind of power numbers you claim you better be ready to pay the piper.
200 NA HP even at the crank is not going to be cheap or easy.
Definitely not just a matter of throwing in some cams and doing a DIY PNP.

I love watching and helping with builds like this so don't take this as me being an ahole. Just me trying to help make sure you don't end up with a motor a long way from your expectations or even worse a blown up motor with a lot of money dumped into it.

Of course I don't mind those either because they are another opportunity for me to sell more parts.

[AE Harold.]

Dude if you want any more help from me you need to stop focusing on ITBs. This is one of the least consequential parts of your build. Not to say induction isn't important but you need to start talking about your build as a whole and if you want the kind of power numbers you claim you better be ready to pay the piper.
200 NA HP even at the crank is not going to be cheap or easy.
Definitely not just a matter of throwing in some cams and doing a DIY PNP.

I love watching and helping with builds like this so don't take this as me being an ahole. Just me trying to help make sure you don't end up with a motor a long way from your expectations or even worse a blown up motor with a lot of money dumped into it.

Of course I don't mind those either because they are another opportunity for me to sell more parts.

Im not worried about money or time. I have plenty of both and I know it takes both to build a great healthy engine with good power. Im asking about the head because so many people state so many opinions on what head to use and what you can and cannot use. A 12:1 compression is what I'm shooting for. I would like to get between 180-200hp on pump gas. I want to be able to drive the car any day and time and have a engine that will last long. Not just for a year or so. I really apperciate your help. Im looking forward in purchasing parts from you and evening learning what to do.

[oldeskewltoy]

Im not worried about money or time.

good... because you'll need somewhere around $10,000... maybe as much as $15,000

A 12:1 compression is what I'm shooting for. I would like to get between 180-200hp on pump gas. I want to be able to drive the car any day and time and have a engine that will last long. Not just for a year or so.

with quality management, and a good tune... it should be usable in most conditions.

If you build it with enough forethought 180+hp can be built to last 50k miles or more... but it will take SOME compromises, and/or additionally costly modifications(enclosed dry sump system maybe???).

Im asking about the head because so many people state so many opinions on what head to use and what you can and cannot use.

Either head will work FINE in your desired power range. The smallports TEND to offer a bit more low end performance, but as you build either the porting will become specific to the head you are using. In the end it is only when you are building an engine over 240hp (n/a) that head choice becomes more important. I WOULD recommend you use O/S valves in which ever head you decide to use, It'll be easier to make the power you desire with O/S valves then stock ones.

[totta crolla]

A 200hp N/A 4age is going to be quite peaky in the power delivery so budget also for a close ratio gearbox and then you will find the lower gears will be too
high so then you also need to budget for a lower final drive, probably something like a 5.1-1
Once you have done this expect the car to have limited top speed @ about 115-120mph and truly awful fuel consumption.
All of this to get a car that will be marginally quicker (if it is all put together properly) than a stock 20v fitted with an after market and properly mapped ecu.